Poor construction helped to end in disaster, what ya think?

[Newmar2856]

Unfortunate incident and a good reminder about turning off your pump or spigot when gone.

I think the trailer is going to be totaled. The insulation in the roof has been saturated which is confirmed by the fact they appeared to have gotten the water cleaned up, but when arriving home had more to deal with. I would imagine that the ceiling will eventually fail and that you’ll probably end up with black mold throughout the roof.

Eventually the sub floor is going to warp or crumble since it is probably OSB or particle board. You may even see the bottom of cabinets breaking down if they absorbed any water and if the underbelly is insulated, then that insulation should be replaced.

I will say kudos to the campground, not for just calling, but for getting in and helping.

For your friends sake, I hope the insurance claim goes smoothly and they total it. If they don’t, he’s looking at a complete roof tear off and ceiling replacement. If that is the case, I’d see about sending it back to Grand Design for the repairs.

Good luck and keep us posted on the outcome. The community is hoping for the best.

[charliez]

One of the TT's I had, actually has a fitting come loose inside a wall. I just happened to be sitting right beside it, outside where and when it happened. I heard the pop, then the water running. Thankfully, it all ran into an outside compartment and then out of the bottom of that and i was able to turn off the water immediately. It was to the shower faucet so I just let the water off and we used the camp showers the rest of the trip. I did have to remove the shower surround. It was easy, just some trim and screws. In this case it was a good thing. The mfg had put several short pieces of pex together to make up the distance needed. I just removed it all and installed one complete piece. Had I been gone, and left the water on, it would potentially become a bad situation.

[Ljwt330]

There was another thread about a "great idea" of using an automatic cut-off device on the hose when using the black tank flush. The OP of that thread, and those that added posts, were all of the school that shut the drain valve, turned on the water for the flush, and often did not remain to monitor the situation. This new device was their way to prevent the situation that this thread was all about. I was tempted to mention the "proper" way to flush the tank, but could not think of a way to do so without sounding like a pompous ass. Maybe some of them will read this thread and have second thoughts on their flush procedures.


BTW, both my current coach and my previous coach had a sticker by the flush port which cautioned to always have the drain valve open when using the tank flush. Now, I will admit that I do close the valve for a short time to build volume inside the tank, then open it for a good flush of rushing water. What I never do is leave the wet bay area until the flush is complete and the hose is disconnected. Period.

[96 Wideglide]

Originally Posted by MtCamper

However I also think the manufacturer is negligent here. The vent should be installed in such a way as to allow water to to flow out without entering the unit.

The manufacturers have covered their a** here by placing a notice near the black tank flush connector warning the sewer valve must be open when using black tank flusher !

[charliez]

At one time I thought about getting a low voltage solenoid to turn off the water supply to the TT with a simple switch from inside, but the more I thought about it, its way too complicated than just walking to the faucet and turning it off.

[windsorbill]

Originally Posted by 96 Wideglide

The manufacturers have covered their a** here by placing a notice near the black tank flush connector warning the sewer valve must be open when using black tank flusher !

It's pretty clear on my coach. Even printed in RED

[FIRE UP]

Well gang,
OP here. Yes, it's easy to *Monday morning quarterback* here and say it never should have happened, never use the black tank flush system, never leave the water on, never leave an RV with the water on and un-attended and all that. I have used our black tank flush for years and never had any issues. That is until my black tank flush just stopped working. That is, water wouldn't flow in that system.

What I found out was, the bone head designer for that system at Winnebago, put a anti-siphon valve and back flow preventer INSIDE THE WALL, about 3' above the floor for that back flush system. Well, long story short, I had to tear the skin off that wall for another reason and found those two items. Once I had the skin off that wall, I yanked both the anti-siphon valve and check valve out and cleaned them both. Re-installed them and checked the system out. The anti-siphon valve was leaking pretty good.

Had I not checked the system out prior to putting the skin back on the wall, I'd have had some real issues just shortly down the road. So, I removed that anti-siphon valve completely and just put an elbow in there in its place. The system works flawless now. But, as others have stated, I never leave that system un-attended when I'm using it. And in fact, I don't flush that tank when we're traveling, there's no need to.

I only flush it when we return home.

As for my buddy and his 5th wheel, time and the insurance company will tell what's to be done with it. If it were mine, I'm pretty sure I'd not want to travel in it, knowing what happened and what was deposited in the insulation in both the ceiling and the undercarriage. My buddy's pretty aware of his surroundings and operations. Did he or did he not forget to turn that black tank flush system off, prior to leaving. Is there a possibility for a passer-by to have maliciously just happened to turn on a valve, on a spigot and walk away, HIGHLY DOUBTFULL, especially in the environment/camp scenario we were camped in. I'm not sure we'll ever know.

Now, the second side of this story, to me is, should Grand Design, OR ANY RV MANUFACTURER, seal ANY vent pipe, to the roof? Well again, I don't know RV construction rules/codes and all that. Maybe some manufactures DO seal them and some maybe don't. Again, those vents are supposed to be for sewer gases, not liquids. To me, the answer here is quite simple. YES they should seal them. And for obvious reason(s). There are numerous caulks, expansive foams, rubberized o-ring-plate mechanisms, and more out there that could and would have prevented at least part of my buddies catastrophe. I mean, how long could it take, while an RV is on the assembly line, to simply grab whatever kind of sealant/caulk/expansive foam, rubber bladder-plate, etc. and seal a couple of vents? So add $5 or $10 bucks to the RV at the end, big deal.

Humans have made mistakes for ever and will continue to make them. We all try and learn from ours but, sometimes they just happen. My mistakes usually cost me in multiple ways, money, time and more. We hope it ends well for them, whichever way things are decided by the insurance company.
Scott

[Persistent]

I see lot of opinion and lots of blaming of lots of people.

The facts are old school. Archeologists have found plumbing almost as good as the best of today in 4000 year old ruins.

Plumbing methods and in modern times plumbing codes have been developed to prevent incidents like this.

The vent stack in the RV does not meet Madison Wisconsin plumbing code. Vent stacks must be sealed to the roof. If a building inspector want to, he can require its tightness through out be demonstrated by filling it to the roof with water. Neither gas nor water is permitted to leak inside the residential space.

The vacuum release valves under sinks and inside wall are also forbidden. All vents must reach the roof and must be sealed. (This rule may have been relaxed a little recently. I am not sure.)

Actually, these regulations are just a government plot to excessively control individuals who should have the right to do what ever they want.

Ignore 4000 years of plumbing development. Just build them any way you can fool someone into buying things.

[Gordon Dewald]

An interesting item is that some coaches (Winnebago) drop the half bath sink into the black tank. At least ours does. In that case it is likely the sink will overflow long before the water vents out of the roof.

[kdauto]

Originally Posted by FIRE UP

Well gang,
OP here. Yes, it's easy to *Monday morning quarterback* here and say it never should have happened, never use the black tank flush system, never leave the water on, never leave an RV with the water on and un-attended and all that. I have used our black tank flush for years and never had any issues. That is until my black tank flush just stopped working. That is, water wouldn't flow in that system.

What I found out was, the bone head designer for that system at Winnebago, put a anti-siphon valve and back flow preventer INSIDE THE WALL, about 3' above the floor for that back flush system. Well, long story short, I had to tear the skin off that wall for another reason and found those two items. Once I had the skin off that wall, I yanked both the anti-siphon valve and check valve out and cleaned them both. Re-installed them and checked the system out. The anti-siphon valve was leaking pretty good.

Had I not checked the system out prior to putting the skin back on the wall, I'd have had some real issues just shortly down the road. So, I removed that anti-siphon valve completely and just put an elbow in there in its place. The system works flawless now. But, as others have stated, I never leave that system un-attended when I'm using it. And in fact, I don't flush that tank when we're traveling, there's no need to.

Scott

removing the anti-siphon (backflow preventer) is a very bad idea! You could contaminate a campground or city water supply, and it is against code to remove that. You could be held responsible should something happen.

It is there exactly for the reasons your friend uses it. In theory, if a city or campground water supply was cut off and the hose left connected, it could siphon black water back through the campground clean water supply and contaminate everything. Don't believe me, ask a plumber.

[mr.tommy]

If we're hooked up to city water, we ALWAYS turn it off whenever we leave the RV. I tell all my friends to do the same. This disaster was totally avoidable.
Sorry he didn't know to do that.

[IBDAGRIZ]

Originally Posted by kdauto

removing the anti-siphon (backflow preventer) is a very bad idea! You could contaminate a campground or city water supply, and it is against code to remove that. You could be held responsible should something happen.

It is there exactly for the reasons your friend uses it. In theory, if a city or campground water supply was cut off and the hose left connected, it could siphon black water back through the campground clean water supply and contaminate everything. Don't believe me, ask a plumber.

You forgot this part..

"And in fact, I don't flush that tank when we're traveling, there's no need to.

I only flush it when we return home."

Griz

[kdauto]

Originally Posted by IBDAGRIZ

You forgot this part..

"And in fact, I don't flush that tank when we're traveling, there's no need to.

I only flush it when we return home."

Griz

This changes nothing. There are backflow preventers on home plumbing unless building codes in your area are a half century old or more.

There is the same risk of doing it at home.

[egwilly]

Stories like the OP's is the reason we turn off the water spigot when we leave and/or turn off the water pump. I never hook up the flush until ready to do the deed.

We also retract the awning when we are gone. Not worth the damage that could happen if it was to get caught in a wind storm.

The trailer mentioned here is now a hazmat trailer. There are many germs and such everywhere in it and the walls and ceiling. It will never be the same.

It's a total.

I think the reason they do not seal the vents is due to the fact the roof and trailer move a lot when towing down the road. That movement would make any seal fail eventually, or pull the vent pipe out of the tank.