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RussOnTheRoad · 06-01-2021, 01:09 PM

I just had a new roof put on the 5th wheel. The old EPDM rubber roof was bubbling up as the result of exposure to high heat from a nearby fire.

Once the old EPDM was removed a layer of 1/8" luan was laid down in order to provide a smooth underlayment for the new EPDM.

For the most part the new EPDM seems OK, but I have concerns about some things I am seeing, specifically puckering around vents, skylights, molding, etc. (photos included below), air bubbles like those that I had never seen on the old roof until after the fire (YouTube link provided below), and some small pimples as if something is trapped between the EPDM and luan (not pictured).

I'm wondering what comments you may have about the defects I am seeing. Bear in mind, when the RV was delivered new it had no observable puckering in the EPDM anywhere. Nor did it have any air bubbles. I don't see why new EPDM laid down on fresh luan should show any such defects.

I'm including some photos and this link to a 10 second YouTube video where I push one of the air bubbles around with my finger:
https://youtu.be/cPVj9CGyrxE

xc-mark · 06-02-2021, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RussOnTheRoad

I just had a new roof put on the 5th wheel. The old EPDM rubber roof was bubbling up as the result of exposure to high heat from a nearby fire.

Once the old EPDM was removed a layer of 1/8" luan was laid down in order to provide a smooth underlayment for the new EPDM.

For the most part the new EPDM seems OK, but I have concerns about some things I am seeing, specifically puckering around vents, skylights, molding, etc. (photos included below), air bubbles like those that I had never seen on the old roof until after the fire (YouTube link provided below), and some small pimples as if something is trapped between the EPDM and luan (not pictured).

I'm wondering what comments you may have about the defects I am seeing. Bear in mind, when the RV was delivered new it had no observable puckering in the EPDM anywhere. Nor did it have any air bubbles. I don't see why new EPDM laid down on fresh luan should show any such defects.

I'm including some photos and this link to a 10 second YouTube video where I push one of the air bubbles around with my finger:
https://youtu.be/cPVj9CGyrxE

I think you will find that the rubber lays down flat once the self leveling sealer finishes off gassing. I had see this once before with a old black rubber roof and Sikaflex 715 , it took about 2~3 months but it all went back to normal.

RussOnTheRoad · 06-02-2021, 04:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xc-mark

I think you will find that the rubber lays down flat once the self leveling sealer finishes off gassing. I had see this once before with a old black rubber roof and Sikaflex 715 , it took about 2~3 months but it all went back to normal.

Thanks. That would certainly be welcome news about the puckering. What about the air bubbling in the middle of the roof, nowhere near any sealant? Any thoughts about that?

Billett Bee · 06-03-2021, 01:02 PM

I personally would be highly dissatisfied with the air bubbles. When did you notice them and did you point that out to installer and did they ask for so much time for them to go away. I would be concerned because my roof used to be perfect and all of a sudden small bubbles appeared and they have just spread and got bigger so after my current experience i would not of left the installer with those bubbles. Just my opinion but I'd be taking it back.

RussOnTheRoad · 06-03-2021, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billett Bee

I personally would be highly dissatisfied with the air bubbles. When did you notice them and did you point that out to installer and did they ask for so much time for them to go away. I would be concerned because my roof used to be perfect and all of a sudden small bubbles appeared and they have just spread and got bigger so after my current experience i would not of left the installer with those bubbles. Just my opinion but I'd be taking it back.

Thanks.

Although I had a look at portions of the roof from next to the RV on a lift when I was picking it up I certainly didn't make a thorough inspection at that time. I didn't go up on the roof for a couple days after I picked up the RV because I wanted sealant and glue to have some time to cure.

I was quite concerned when I first discovered the bubbles and puckers but I'm reigning in that concern for the moment. I've since had contact with the mfr. that confirmed that there is a reaction between new sealant and EPDM and the puckers may well go away on their own soon. I think a couple of the air bubbles have disappeared on their own and a couple others I pressed down on for a minute or so also seem to have disappeared--for how long I don't know. The mfr. said I had nothing to lose by trying this. (BTW, I am differentiating between puckers around vents and near edges of the EPDM where sealant contacts the EPDM and which are like ripples versus bubbles which are more central to the roof, not near any edges where sealant could be reacting with the EPDM, and are rounder in shape.)

I've just written to the installing shop with photos and a video expressing my concerns so I'll wait to hear from them.

Billett Bee · 06-03-2021, 05:39 PM

I will definitly be following your story. Its hard to believe there just going to go away . If the air bubbles can get out that also means that air can get in and driving 70 mph on the hwy is not our friend when it comes to air bubbles under the epdm. Your right that if you have a good installer who will honor there work than you have nothing to lose. I just hope for your sake that there not trying too drag things out and it appears too be better than 18 months down the rd its flapping in the breeze. That would obviously be the worst case scenario but I'm not a very trusting person when I pay someone too do a job and when it comes out they say let's give it time, that's when i kind of turn into a jerk because you can only get burned so many times before you lessen your trustworthiness. I'm a tough sale I know. I'm having a custom coach built and they have already been warned that I plan on staying in there lot for a wk with it shaking it down untill it's perfect. It's just so hard to get things done after you have left the lot.
Please post how your bubbles are doing over time and how the installer takes care of you. I do truly wish you the best of good fortune.

RussOnTheRoad · 06-03-2021, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billett Bee

I will definitly be following your story. Its hard to believe there just going to go away . If the air bubbles can get out that also means that air can get in and driving 70 mph on the hwy is not our friend when it comes to air bubbles under the epdm. Your right that if you have a good installer who will honor there work than you have nothing to lose. I just hope for your sake that there not trying too drag things out and it appears too be better than 18 months down the rd its flapping in the breeze. That would obviously be the worst case scenario but I'm not a very trusting person when I pay someone too do a job and when it comes out they say let's give it time, that's when i kind of turn into a jerk because you can only get burned so many times before you lessen your trustworthiness. I'm a tough sale I know. I'm having a custom coach built and they have already been warned that I plan on staying in there lot for a wk with it shaking it down untill it's perfect. It's just so hard to get things done after you have left the lot.
Please post how your bubbles are doing over time and how the installer takes care of you. I do truly wish you the best of good fortune.

Thanks for your thoughts.

One thing I just came across on the Dicor site (Dicor being the maker of the EPDM and lap sealant used on the new roof) included this:
"Lap sealants formulated for RV roofs, on the other hand, are made to bite into the EPDM or TPO roof material (Dicor lap sealant also works with metal and fiberglass) and hold fast. In the case of a common EPDM roof, lap sealants like Dicor's self-leveling and non-sag, non self-leveling sealants contain an oil-based solvent that reacts with the oil-based elements in the roofing material. At first, this reaction will actually cause the roofing material to swell a bit — you might even get a slight rippling effect. But don't worry! This is only temporary while the reacting oils evaporate, which brings the roof back to its normal state and, most importantly, essentially fusing the sealant and roofing material together." This was excerpted from
https://dicorproducts.com/eblast/DP-133/a1/

Some thoughts on breathability vs. permeability...I think certain membranes, Gore-Tex being one that comes to mind, are capable of allowing vapor to pass through them without allowing water to pass. I'm not up on the science of these things but a quick Google seems to find results saying vapor can pass though EPDM but moisture cannot. Should this be true then it seems conceivable that gasses caused by a chemical reaction between the EPDM membrane and sealant that become trapped under the EPDM could potentially pass though the membrane and puckering caused by the gasses diminish or disappear as the gasses dissipate.

Another thought about bubbles or puckers caused by gasses under the EPDM is that it may be possible for them to dissipate in the other direction: instead of up through the EPDM they might be able to travel down through the wood or seams where there are joints.

I'm far from an expert on any of this but these explanations seem plausible to me. For sure I will be watching the roof like a hawk and reporting back to the forum

jdpm · 06-04-2021, 05:42 AM

It looks pretty sloppy to me. Anyone that is getting anew roof whether out of pocket or paid by insurance I suggest the sprayed RV Flex Armor with no maintenance and a lifetime guarantee. Insurance will pay for it and its the same cost as a rubber roof. I electively installed it on my 38' fiver over 3 years ago. Love it.

RussOnTheRoad · 06-04-2021, 07:23 AM

Another Update: i wrote to Dicor, the maker of the sealant and ELDM roof membrane. While there was no facility on their web form to attach photos I did my best to explain what I was seeing on the roof and what you saw in the photos included with my OP. This was Dicor's response:
"What you are seeing is the solvents in the lap sealant flashing off. This is a normal occurrence that you are seeing. Once the curing process has completed (30 days) the puckering will go away and the membrane will lay back flat. Leave the areas alone and the bubbles and puckering will go away on their own during the curing process."

rblanch · 06-04-2021, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdpm

It looks pretty sloppy to me. Anyone that is getting anew roof whether out of pocket or paid by insurance I suggest the sprayed RV Flex Armor with no maintenance and a lifetime guarantee. Insurance will pay for it and its the same cost as a rubber roof. I electively installed it on my 38' fiver over 3 years ago. Love it.

Ditto after looking at the pictures and all that caulking I'm glad i got the Flex Armor also. It's possible the bubbles in the middle of the roof may lay down but is the glue already dry. Seems if it was properly glued it would not come up. I've been camping for a while and have owned three campers and it seems as this is only a recent problem I never had roof problems with my older campers.

Billett Bee · 06-04-2021, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RussOnTheRoad

Another Update: i wrote to Dicor, the maker of the sealant and ELDM roof membrane. While there was no facility on their web form to attach photos I did my best to explain what I was seeing on the roof and what you saw in the photos included with my OP. This was Dicor's response:
"What you are seeing is the solvents in the lap sealant flashing off. This is a normal occurrence that you are seeing. Once the curing process has completed (30 days) the puckering will go away and the membrane will lay back flat. Leave the areas alone and the bubbles and puckering will go away on their own during the curing process."

Tyvm for the update. Did they suggest for you to not travel with it so Hwy speed winds wouldn't make it worse?

RussOnTheRoad · 06-04-2021, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billett Bee

Tyvm for the update. Did they suggest for you to not travel with it so Hwy speed winds wouldn't make it worse?

No such cautions were issued. The puckers and bubbles are pretty small so I'm not so sure wind forces would have much effect on them.

I've been able to work out some of the pickering around vents and skylights with my fingers. Some of it seems to come back, sometimes to a lesser degree. Somtimes seem to stay gone. It's only been a few days though. I'm hoping with time these will disappear altogether.

Bubbles away from edges were there is no lap sealant or seams where gasses can be vented seem perhaps more stubborn. They go away but come right back.

Billett Bee · 06-04-2021, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RussOnTheRoad

No such cautions were issued. The puckers and bubbles are pretty small so I'm not so sure wind forces would have much effect on them.

I've been able to work out some of the pickering around vents and skylights with my fingers. Some of it seems to come back, sometimes to a lesser degree. Somtimes seem to stay gone. It's only been a few days though. I'm hoping with time these will disappear altogether.

Bubbles away from edges were there is no lap sealant or seams where gasses can be vented seem perhaps more stubborn. They go away but come right back.

I think the most important thing for you is that you have been in contact with the installer and manufacturer and they know what's happening on your rig so they can't say a month from now that you never told us so your screwed. I know most of the epdm covering has a 10+ yr warranty, does your installer also back his or her work?

RussOnTheRoad · 06-04-2021, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billett Bee

I think the most important thing for you is that you have been in contact with the installer and manufacturer and they know what's happening on your rig so they can't say a month from now that you never told us so your screwed. I know most of the epdm covering has a 10+ yr warranty, does your installer also back his or her work?

Other than an advisory capacity the mfr. is out of the picture here. The RV is long out of warranty.

There is some question about the warranty on the new roof. The insurance co. said that all the shops on the list of shops they sent to me had a lifetime nationwide warranty on workmanship. I'm not sure how that would work if you're a 1,000 miles away from the shop when a problem surfaces. The shop, however, had different ideas about what the warranty is. I have requested a copy of it but have not yet seen it. So, it's not just what happens with the roof as it cures that I'm waiting to see, it's also what the warranty is. At this point I'm not that concerned either about the roof or the warranty but again, we'll have to see how things progress.