Actual payload capacity of new dually's

[CWSWine]

Originally Posted by dskyward

Bottom of Pg 30 of the 2018 Ford Super Duty brochure says it’s included:
“Maximum capabilities shown are for properly equipped vehicles with required equipment and a 150-lb. driver.”

https://www.ford.com/services/assets...Duty&year=2018

Maybe they’ve been encouraged to rethink that since then. A truck or any vehicle can’t operate without a driver. It makes sense to post payload numbers after the driver is seated, as the driver is part of the ‘equipment’. If the driver is 300 lbs, then you have to remember to deduct 150 lbs from payload.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If you have your chasis cab go thru a upfiter prior to being titled they are required to reduce the payload by the amount of the options added. If you wait till after it's titled the requirement goes away.



Looks like Ford has added some additional information for 5th wheels. He is quote from the link above on page 30.


.5th-Wheel Towing Notes:
This information also applies to models with pickup box delete option (66D). Trailer kingpin load weight should be 15% of total loaded trailer weight. Make sure that the vehicle payload (reduced by option weight) will accommodate trailer kingpin load weight and the weight of passengers and cargo added to the towing vehicle. The addition of trailer kingpin load weight, and the weight of passengers and cargo, must not cause vehicle weights to exceed the rear GAWR (Gross Axle Weight Rating) or GVWR (Gross Vehicle Weight Rating). These ratings can be found on the vehicle’s Safety Compliance Certification Labe

[Elisavaet]

Originally Posted by dskyward

Bottom of Pg 30 of the 2018 Ford Super Duty brochure says it’s included:
“Maximum capabilities shown are for properly equipped vehicles with required equipment and a 150-lb. driver.”

https://www.ford.com/services/assets...Duty&year=2018

Maybe they’ve been encouraged to rethink that since then. A truck or any vehicle can’t operate without a driver. It makes sense to post payload numbers after the driver is seated, as the driver is part of the ‘equipment’. If the driver is 300 lbs, then you have to remember to deduct 150 lbs from payload.

Originally Posted by CWSWine

If you have your chasis cab go thru a upfiter prior to being titled they are required to reduce the payload by the amount of the options added. If you wait till after it's titled the requirement goes away.

Looks like Ford has added some additional information for 5th wheels. He is quote from the link above on page 30.

.5th-Wheel Towing Notes:
This information also applies to models with pickup box delete option (66D). Trailer kingpin load weight should be 15% of total loaded trailer weight. Make sure that the vehicle payload (reduced by option weight) will accommodate trailer kingpin load weight and the weight of passengers and cargo added to the towing vehicle. The addition of trailer kingpin load weight, and the weight of passengers and cargo, must not cause vehicle weights to exceed the rear GAWR (Gross Axle Weight Rating) or GVWR (Gross Vehicle Weight Rating). These ratings can be found on the vehicle’s Safety Compliance Certification Labe

Thanks for pointing that out guys, I'd missed that fine print. You also pointed me to something I thought I'd seen at some point but could't find again. On p. 29, with the 14,000 pound GVWR package, the F350 is rated for 6,530 pounds payload while the F450 has a payload of 5,310. Keeping in mind that you have to look at the actual load sticker to see what the payload is with options, which is why I started this thread, that still indicates that the F350 has the potential of 1,220 pounds more payload than the F450.

Carrying that to my original findings:

• Ram 3500 Laramie Longhorn 4x4 dually - 5,316 pounds.
• GMC Sierra 3500 SLT 4x4 dually - 4,543 pounds.
• Ford F450 Limited 4x4 dually - 4,824 pounds.

You could assume that an F350 Limited 4x4 dually would potentially have a payload as configured (on the payload sticker in the door jam), of 6,044 pounds.

With my requirements of:

• 100 gal aux fuel tank - 7#/gal + 75# hardware = 775 pounds.
• 5th wheel hitch = 150 pounds.
• Pin weight 17,000# GVWR = 3,400 pounds.
• Pin weight 21,000# GVWR = 4,200 pounds.
• Gear (air compressor, battery hot shot, etc.) = 75 pounds.
• People and their

stuff (kids, grandkids...) = 400 pounds.

Corrected Min/Max:

• Min - 4,800
• Max - 5,600

With an F350 with a configured payload of six thousand pounds I would be well within the maximum estimate, allowing me to buy an off the lot pickup and still have the flexibility of going to a 19K Forest River Riverstone or a 22K used DRV and not be overloaded. A cab and chassis with a hauler bed IS an option, but that's sort of the point of this exercise, to figure out what the options are. That's the type of pickup I might be able to find at a Ford dealership that does a lot of fleet sales in XLT configuration.

Kate

[Cypressloser]

Originally Posted by Elisavaet

Thanks for the info! I've been hoping to hear from someone that went the cab and chassis route!

I see from the Forest River's website that the GVWR on your RiverStone is 19,030 so I'd estimate about 3,800 pounds pin weight.

13mpg avg actually sounds very good! I get 16mpg avg with my 2002 3/4 ton Cummins 4x4 and 9.5 to 10.0 towing. And 1,900 miles range along with being able to get service at any FCA dealer would be amazing!

I have questions!

• I see from the Ram towing guide that the payload on your 5500 is probably around 10,900. With 1,500 pounds left, around 600 pounds for fuel, 2,000 pounds for the bed, and 3,800 pin weight, that means you've got around 3,000 pounds of other stuff on board? That doesn't sound right. What am I missing?

With the 4:10 gears we have a reduced GVWR of 18000lbs and as a side benefit slightly softer (barely noticeable) suspension and better fuel economy.

• How does she handle and ride when you aren't towing?
• The handling is great, turning radius is amazing, the suspension is stiffer than it is on the 3500 but unless on washboard gravel road I find it very acceptable. Unfortunately, as on all cab chassis trucks the engine power is throttled down a bit but I find it handles the trailer just as good as our 3500 Longhorn did with 3.43 gears only at a higher rpm. I'm trying to find a way to adjust the tire pressure more easily as there is no need to run at max. pressure 100% of the time and doing it manually is a PITA. If I had $10K burning a hole in my pocket I'd go to Kelderman and have them convert the truck to air ride. I had tandem axle farm trucks on leafs that were much stiffer. Anyway, for parking you find a spot 2 sites deep and that's it - I like to find a place in the back where it's less crowded and where back in, I do the same with our SRX bec. dent repair is expensive and annoying.
• Why did you go for the 84" ca rather than a 60" ca?
• I had a F550 with a 60" c/a at one time and found the deck with an aux. fuel tank taking up over 2' too short to put anything between it and the 5th wheel hitch. The dealer here in town https://www.rockydodge.com/ had a 4500 delivered as I was placing the order and discussing whether I should go with 60" or 84" c/a. The dealer suggested going with 84", the proportions look better, I have full 36" between my fuel tank / toolbox combo and the 5th wheel where I can carry propane cylinders, a generator or - whatever.
• How did you get a 5500 with a 4.10 axle? It was suggested by the GM at the dealership and I'm happy with the setup, this explains the fuel mileage. They only show them available with the 4.88 and 4.44, and when you select the 4.44 the towing capacity drops to 17k, which is odd, as the 4500 with the 4.44 has a towing capacity of 24,560! The 4.10 /18000lbs configuration is not listed in my 2018 Canadian edition brochure at all, you may have to talk to the dealer. The towing capacity of our truck is registered with the VIN as 29760lbs but restricted to 26000lbs by the Bedrock deck.
• With that setup how does she tow on the flat? In the hills? I would like to be able to maintain speed going through the passes in N. Nevada. When I compare the towing between the 3500 and the 5500, the 5500 is not faster but it feels more solid, not only in the suspension but also in the drivetrain - if this makes sense. I regularly tow across the Canadian Rockies with some long 10% -11% grades but I've only done it once with this tuck and a cargo trailer this last winter which wasn't a real test with chains on the wheels, but I'd say this truck still has a bit more "oomph" in 6th gear, even with the reduced horsepower.
• Which Bedrock bed did you get? How much does it weigh and what did it cost you?
• We have the 11'4" 'Granite" truck bed with 4 slam latch door tool boxes, 26k turnover ball and 22k B&W companion hitch. The deck is very strong and well built but I wish the powder coating was of a better quality, it shows rust on some welds, the slam latch locks don't have an effective cover to keep water, salt and dust out but they are easy to replace. Bedrock decks only come in black, the original plan was to have it painted to match the truck (Pearl White) and I may still have it done down the road, who knows.

Thanks!
Kate

I apologize for the late reply, I didn't get all email notifications for some weird reason.
I'll upload pictures later as our internet sucks at the moment.

[Cypressloser]

Here are my most current weights, we live full-time in our RiverStone.


Truck with driver, passenger, tools, Herd front bumper, aux. fuel tank/toolbox combo, 150gal. onboard:


Front:6160 lbs, FAWR: 7000 lbs
Rear:6160 lbs, RAWR: 13500 lbs
Gross: 12320 lbs, GVWR: 18000 lbs

Truck with Trailer:
Front: 5790 lbs
Rear: 10100 lbs
Trailer axles: 15050 lbs
Gross: 30940 lbs

Pinweight: 3570 lbs
Trailer axles: 15050 lbs

Trailer Gross: 18620 lbs, GVWR: 19060 lbs


Front basement storage empty at weighing, otherwise loaded up, propane full, very little in water and waste tanks. Tools and everything else heavy on the truck. I have since moved the 112lbs trailer spare to the truck and removed the 100lbs spare tire carrier altogether.



Note: An onboard generator or, what we have a heavy battery bank and inverter can easily push the pinweight to 20%.

[Elisavaet]

Originally Posted by Cypressloser

Here are my most current weights, we live full-time in our RiverStone.

Truck with driver, passenger, tools, Herd front bumper, aux. fuel tank/toolbox combo, 150gal. onboard:

Front:6160 lbs, FAWR: 7000 lbs
Rear:6160 lbs, RAWR: 13500 lbs
Gross: 12320 lbs, GVWR: 18000 lbs

Truck with Trailer:
Front: 5790 lbs
Rear: 10100 lbs
Trailer axles: 15050 lbs
Gross: 30940 lbs

Pinweight: 3570 lbs
Trailer axles: 15050 lbs

Trailer Gross: 18620 lbs, GVWR: 19060 lbs

Front basement storage empty at weighing, otherwise loaded up, propane full, very little in water and waste tanks. Tools and everything else heavy on the truck. I have since moved the 112lbs trailer spare to the truck and removed the 100lbs spare tire carrier altogether.

Note: An onboard generator or, what we have a heavy battery bank and inverter can easily push the pinweight to 20%.

Thanks for all the information! That will help a lot!
Kate

[Elisavaet]

I'm continuing to do research, and am finding that it looks like SAE J2807 includes, "the “Tow Vehicle Total Weight” (TVTW) for testing for ¾- and 1-ton trucks allocates 150 pounds for the driver, 150 pounds for a passenger, the weight of all tow package equipment, and 100 pounds of optional equipment (hitch ball, weight distribution bars, and such) split evenly between the front and rear axles."

That would bring my estimates to about:

• 100 gal aux fuel tank - 7#/gal + 100# hardware = 800 pounds.
• Pin weight 17,000# GVWR = 3,400 pounds, or,
• Pin weight 21,000# GVWR = 4,200 pounds.
• People and their stuff (kids, grandkids...) = 250 pounds.

For a min/max of: 4,450/5,250.

For reference, what I found on dually load stickers was:

• Ram 3500 Laramie Longhorn 4x4 dually - 5,316 pounds.
• GMC Sierra 3500 SLT 4x4 dually - 4,543 pounds.
• Ford F450 Limited 4x4 dually - 4,824 pounds.

This means that:

1. Even with a used DRV at 21,000 pounds I am well within the capacity of a Ram dually. I still haven't gotten a look at an F350 load sticker from one with the 14k gvwr package but indications are that it will have at least and perhaps a few hundred pounds more payload available than the Ram.
2. I can go with either a 3500/F350 cab and chassis or a 4500/F450 cab and chassis and a standard flatbed without an expensive hauler bed or a custom flatbed that would not resale easily if needed. I would prefer a flatbed as, at 5'3" in work boots, it would be MUCH easier to hook and unhook than either a standard bed or even a hauler bed.

Fyi, I haven't spent the $78.00 to download a copy of J2807 so I can read it myself, yet. In my early career I was a machine design engineer and quality assurance engineer. I've read my share of SAE and ASTM standards. For something as important as this decision, I probably should read this one myself. AND I should probably make sure I understand when and if Ford and Ram are or are not "compliant".

I also stumbled across a video for the installation of a

B&W Companion Hitch on a C&M ER bed.

For the SK bed you have to special order it with the gooseneck ball box increased in size to allow the B&W Companion to fit, but didn't know that the ER bed trough was a fit this easily! I was assuming you'd have to have the bed modified or something odd!

I also found that Hillsboro Beds are specifically setup to allow easy use of the B&W Companion hitch.

I had been concerned that, rather than being able to get a standard flatbed for perhaps five grand, I'd end up having to go with a custom hauler bed ($15k to $25k!) or with a custom flatbed which would inflate the price dramatically! Instead, it looks like an off the shelf steel or aluminum bed would work fine as long as I use the B&W Companion. I'll admit that the Hensley Trailer Saver hitch looks very interesting, but I'm not a rich woman.

The B&W Companion hitch is very well thought of. Used in conjunction with an air ride / trailaire type of pin box I think the "over" engineer in me might be happy

Something like RV Dreams' Bodywerks bed is attractive;

RV Dreams with Bodywerks Bed.

But I don't have as much stuff as they do If I don't need the storage, I'd rather lose the side compartments so the 7 way plug, hitch safety pins, etc. are that much easier to access.

With a standard flatbed like the CM ER or CM SK or Hillsboro Industries I'd be able to add virtually any aux fuel tank, such as the RDS aluminum tank.

Mounting the spare is a decision on the F450/4500 as they have the primary fuel tank back where the spare goes on a one ton. With an aux fuel tank up near the cab, mounting the spare flush against the cab isn't an option, but I've seen them mounted flat in the bed behind the hitch, on the cab, etc. That's a solvable problem.

I'm estimated a 4500 based on the Ram towing guide as 7,710 pounds of payload. Subtract a 1,500 pound aluminum bed and I have about 6,210 pounds available. That leaves about a thousand pounds of excess payload at max with a 21,000 pound fiver. With the 3500 I'd be running close to max with a 21,000 pound unit, or about seven hundred to a thousand pounds under with a 17,000 pound unit. I'd prefer to run under max.

The 4500 is running about 87% of payload with the 21,000 pound unit and about 84% of towing capacity. It has the 19.5" commercial grade tires, bigger brakes, and a smaller turning radius. And, if I go with the F450 there is the shorter wheelbase option with a supercab.

Hmmm...

Kate

[Elisavaet]

Originally Posted by Elisavaet

I'm continuing to do research, and am finding that it looks like SAE J2807 includes, "the “Tow Vehicle Total Weight” (TVTW) for testing for ¾- and 1-ton trucks allocates 150 pounds for the driver, 150 pounds for a passenger, the weight of all tow package equipment, and 100 pounds of optional equipment (hitch ball, weight distribution bars, and such) split evenly between the front and rear axles."

That would bring my estimates to about:

• 100 gal aux fuel tank - 7#/gal + 100# hardware = 800 pounds.
• Pin weight 17,000# GVWR = 3,400 pounds, or,
• Pin weight 21,000# GVWR = 4,200 pounds.
• People and their stuff (kids, grandkids...) = 250 pounds.

For a min/max of: 4,450/5,250.

For reference, what I found on dually load stickers was:

• Ram 3500 Laramie Longhorn 4x4 dually - 5,316 pounds.
• GMC Sierra 3500 SLT 4x4 dually - 4,543 pounds.
• Ford F450 Limited 4x4 dually - 4,824 pounds.

I failed to mention earlier that this brings the GM truck right back into the possibilities. If I stick with a 17k or lighter (light? really?) fiver, the GM 3500 has adequate payload.

A Sierra 3500 bed delete with an aluminum CM ER bed would give me the most comfortable ride for a daily driver and have an under bed spare tire carrier. Rickson wheels DO make 8 hole 19.5" rims after all...

[Cypressloser]

I wish I could upload some pictures, but unfortunately our internet sucks at the moment - that's even an understatement. I had a 3/16"! checker plate aluminum fueltank toolbox combo welded up by a local welder who has a ticket to fabricate tanks for 'nonflammable' fuels up 100 gal. in size. The combo measures roughly 72"w x 36"d x 22"h and is slightly tapered toward the rear, the fuel tank itself is on the bottom and holds 80 gal., the toolbox on top is split down the middle and stores the truck spare on one side and the trailer spare on the other side. The two lids are supported by gas struts and lockable. The fill neck for the aux. tank is welded in the corner of the one spare tire compartment on the driver side, I also have room in there for a 20 ton bottle jack, a few wood blocks, breaker bar, impact wrench, grease gun - the nasty stuff. Behind the toolbox / fueltank I have 36" to the B&W companion hitch which sits inside a 19" x 20" well in the deck, this gives me enough clearance for tight turns.

I agree with you steering toward a 450/4500 (550/5500?) truck with larger tires, brakes, frame, wider axles, etc.. The tighter turning radius alone is reason enough to skip the 350/3500, with that said keep in mind that if you do a 'box delete' you only gain a few hundred pounds but have to install a deck that potentially weighs 1500 pounds. Also, with a very short deck you may not have the necessary space for a large fueltank, unless you keep it very shallow so that it clears the front of the 5th wheel in tight turns. I for my part love having the spare tires where they are. Also as you have observed, it is very easy to reach the latch lever and hook up the break away cable when you don't have to reach over the side of the truckbox.

I really like the Duramax/Allison combo in the Sierra/Silverado trucks but if you go that route be aware that the taller tires you're considering will change the height of the 5th wheel hitch by about 2", our pinbox and the B&W hitch are not adjustable, plus the brakes on the truck are matched to the size of the stock tires.

[Elisavaet]

Originally Posted by Cypressloser

I wish I could upload some pictures, but unfortunately our internet sucks at the moment - that's even an understatement. I had a 3/16"! checker plate aluminum fueltank toolbox combo welded up by a local welder who has a ticket to fabricate tanks for 'nonflammable' fuels up 100 gal. in size. The combo measures roughly 72"w x 36"d x 22"h and is slightly tapered toward the rear, the fuel tank itself is on the bottom and holds 80 gal., the toolbox on top is split down the middle and stores the truck spare on one side and the trailer spare on the other side. The two lids are supported by gas struts and lockable. The fill neck for the aux. tank is welded in the corner of the one spare tire compartment on the driver side, I also have room in there for a 20 ton bottle jack, a few wood blocks, breaker bar, impact wrench, grease gun - the nasty stuff. Behind the toolbox / fueltank I have 36" to the B&W companion hitch which sits inside a 19" x 20" well in the deck, this gives me enough clearance for tight turns.

I agree with you steering toward a 450/4500 (550/5500?) truck with larger tires, brakes, frame, wider axles, etc.. The tighter turning radius alone is reason enough to skip the 350/3500, with that said keep in mind that if you do a 'box delete' you only gain a few hundred pounds but have to install a deck that potentially weighs 1500 pounds. Also, with a very short deck you may not have the necessary space for a large fueltank, unless you keep it very shallow so that it clears the front of the 5th wheel in tight turns. I for my part love having the spare tires where they are. Also as you have observed, it is very easy to reach the latch lever and hook up the break away cable when you don't have to reach over the side of the truckbox.

I really like the Duramax/Allison combo in the Sierra/Silverado trucks but if you go that route be aware that the taller tires you're considering will change the height of the 5th wheel hitch by about 2", our pinbox and the B&W hitch are not adjustable, plus the brakes on the truck are matched to the size of the stock tires.

Thanks for the additional information Cypress! That sounds like a very nice setup on the fuel tank/spare tire carrier! I sure wish your internet connection worked well enough for pictures! Is your fuel tank a gravity feed off a manual ball valve?

I've sent emails to Hillsboro and CM asking about the weight of Al beds for the 3500 dually, but I agree with you that modifications may be ill advised when I'm talking about going to 19.5's for example.

I'm surprised your pin box and the B&W companion aren't adjustable. I thought the legs on the B&W Companion could be adjusted on their mount points in the base. More research to do! That's a point between the CM SK and ER beds vs the Hillsboro as an example. The Hillsboro bed has the B&W hitch sitting on top of the deck. The CM (and I think your Bedrock bed) have the hitch sitting down in the gooseneck pit just on top of the frame rails, so almost four inches lower.

Thanks for your input!

Kate

[Cypressloser]

I'll try posting some pics tonight and include a few measurements.

[Elisavaet]

Originally Posted by Cypressloser

...our pinbox and the B&W hitch are not adjustable, plus the brakes on the truck are matched to the size of the stock tires.

Cypress, you must have a much older version of the B&W. The video below is from 2013 showing installation of the B&W Companion. At 3:15 or so in he shows how the legs have several spots to be mounted to adjust vertical height. I've never seen a pin box that doesn't have vertical adjustment either, except for maybe something like the Reese Revolution, which I'm sure you don't have on a 19k fiver!

This B&W Companion owners manual shows a 16.25 to 18.25 height adjustment range.

B&W Companion Hitch Installation

[Elisavaet]

I just got an email from Erica Roth at Friendly Ford here in Las Vegas with a jpg of the load plate on an F350 Lariat!

The F350 Lariat shows 5,440 pounds of available payload with the 14,000 pound payload package (window sticker attached). The link above is to the actual truck:

A summary of the GVWR for the four trucks:

• Ford F350 Lariat 4x4 Dually - 5,440 pounds.
• Ram 3500 Laramie Longhorn 4x4 dually - 5,316 pounds.
• GMC Sierra 3500 SLT 4x4 dually - 4,543 pounds.
• Ford F450 Limited 4x4 dually - 4,824 pounds.

An extra 124 pounds for the F350 over the Ram 3500 doesn't sound like a lot at first glance, but if you look at the comparison chart I've attached it means that I've got a little breathing room on the DRV at 190 pounds rather than just barely squeaking by with 66 pounds. At this point, perhaps it's diving too deep into the minutiae, but, I'm an engineer. I have to run the numbers!

If you back off away from the DRV the extra 124 pounds means a lot less. 1,030 pounds free vs 906 for the Solitude 344GK for example. For a 19K fiver like Cypress' RiverStone also looks better at 400 pounds of pin weight less than the 21K DRV.

Of course the Class 4 Ram 4500 is still the one with the big margin of comfort and the better turning radius. I got a quote of right at 1,000 pounds for an aluminum flatbed from Hillsboro. The flatbed would be nice so I don't have to climb about in a bed, but either a Ram 3500 or Ford F350 are really nice trucks, but without the shorter turning radius and commercial grade tires.

I think I could buy either the Ram 3500 or F350 and get the job done, but I still want to investigate the flatbed/class 4 option. And, if I do go with a 21K fiver, I'd like to have that extra margin of safety on the payload.

Kate

[Freqz]

Glad you were able to get those numbers. [emoji4]. I took pictures of my 2017 this morning but wasn’t able to get them to attach. Either way, those numbers are 100 pounds more than mine but it’s about the heaviest 350 you’ll find: DRW, Lariat, FW prep, sunroof, FX4.

FWIW, when I was thinking shopping I had spreadsheets calculating axle loadings based on different truck/camper combos [emoji12] I could plug in anything from my 2013 F150 through a F550 [emoji16]

[Newmar2856]

Will there be any licensing or insurance differences/issues going with an F450/F550 or 4500/5500?