Actual payload capacity of new dually's

[Elisavaet]

Originally Posted by drwwicks

One of the issues I am facing in my search is the bed length and the distance between the 5th wheel mount, pucks, and the bed front wall. I will install my aux fuel tank and it 22" front to rear and the short Ram bed isn't that far. On my F-250 I had to trim about 1/2" off the front legs of the B&W Companion but that can't be done with a puck mounted 5th wheel hitch. I now am leaning strongly towards the Ram 3500 crew cab Laramie SRW 8' bed. My research says the "Tire Loading Information" sticker has a passenger/cargo capacity of 3900#+- which will meet my loading requirements. Yes I could go dually and be guaranteed capacity but don't need that if I buy carefully.

The short bed on the Mega Cab definitely restricts aux fuel capacity. I've gone back and forth on that. On the extreme, I'd like to have at least capacity to get from Las Vegas to Seattle, 1,300 miles. But that means somewhere between on hundred forty five and one hundred eighty five gallons at seven to nine mpg. That's a lot of volume and a lot of weight.

As a minimum I want to be able to pull a long day and not worry about refueling for several hours the next morning. I figure six hundred miles as the absolute longest day I'd ever want to pull, and two hundred miles of capacity the next morning. That's about ninety to a hundred ten gallons. With a 50 gallon replacement main and 50 gallon in bed tank from Titan I can get just about that with the Mega Cab. A miss is as good as a mile here. I either have enough fuel to make two long days of six hundred miles each plus a few, or I'm going to have to fill up once. Whether I fill up a hundred miles short of destination or five hundred short is irrelevant.

Since I accept it's all about the compromises maybe that's a good compromise for me. I could go SRW for example were I willing to go a good bit lighter on the fivers I'm looking at, but I prefer the DRW for towing safety and stability as well.

Ain't no perfect rig!



Kate

[chunker]

Originally Posted by Elisavaet

The short bed on the Mega Cab definitely restricts aux fuel capacity. I've gone back and forth on that. On the extreme, I'd like to have at least capacity to get from Las Vegas to Seattle, 1,300 miles. But that means somewhere between on hundred forty five and one hundred eighty five gallons at seven to nine mpg. That's a lot of volume and a lot of weight.

As a minimum I want to be able to pull a long day and not worry about refueling for several hours the next morning. I figure six hundred miles as the absolute longest day I'd ever want to pull, and two hundred miles of capacity the next morning. That's about ninety to a hundred ten gallons. With a 50 gallon replacement main and 50 gallon in bed tank from Titan I can get just about that with the Mega Cab. A miss is as good as a mile here. I either have enough fuel to make two long days of six hundred miles each plus a few, or I'm going to have to fill up once. Whether I fill up a hundred miles short of destination or five hundred short is irrelevant.

Since I accept it's all about the compromises maybe that's a good compromise for me. I could go SRW for example were I willing to go a good bit lighter on the fivers I'm looking at, but I prefer the DRW for towing safety and stability as well.

Ain't no perfect rig!



Kate

Kate the trailer I'l be getting in the fall is the Grand Design Solitude 310GK. UVW 12,100 and GVWR at 15K. Based on some postings of their actual weights I'm going to use the 20% pin weight figure and be comfortable with that selection. So I need a cargo capacity of 3k + my aux fuel, 380#, hitch and the passengers. One Ram Laramie sticker I looked at was 3900+ so there is adequate capacity in that SRW. That's my plan.

I've been told by some others that tow why do I want a 1T for that little ole trailer but they have never weighed, don't know their own GVWR or care, added air bags that magically increased GVWR by 5K (need to find that brand), and keep adding stuff. As I mentioned in another posting I flew helicopters for 45 years and loading was important. Not only how much but where. We're somewhat limited in the where but can control the what. Too much "what" and you need a bigger plane/truck.

Just my take

[CWSWine]

Originally Posted by drwwicks

Kate the trailer I'l be getting in the fall is the Grand Design Solitude 310GK. UVW 12,100 and GVWR at 15K. Based on some postings of their actual weights I'm going to use the 20% pin weight figure and be comfortable with that selection. So I need a cargo capacity of 3k + my aux fuel, 380#, hitch and the passengers. One Ram Laramie sticker I looked at was 3900+ so there is adequate capacity in that SRW. That's my plan.

I've been told by some others that tow why do I want a 1T for that little ole trailer but they have never weighed, don't know their own GVWR or care, added air bags that magically increased GVWR by 5K (need to find that brand), and keep adding stuff. As I mentioned in another posting I flew helicopters for 45 years and loading was important. Not only how much but where. We're somewhat limited in the where but can control the what. Too much "what" and you need a bigger plane/truck

Just my take

Here are weights from a from a US Army Helicopter TI and weight and balance NCO.

Specs of a 310GK-R weighted at a CAT scale on 30 Oct 2016

Status from Grand Design Website.

UVW 12,100

Dry Pin Weight 2350

From Grand Design Weight Sheet that came with my 5er and has my VIN listed on the top of the sheet.

GVWR 15,000

GAWR (Per Axle) 7,000

UVW 12226 (Matches Sticker on 5er)

Hitch Weight 2392

Left (Street Side) 5326

Right (Curb Side) 4508

Cargo Carrying Capacity 2714

Truck Specs

Ford F350 Diesel SuperCab 143” Wheel Base 6.5 foot bed.

B&W Campion Hitch non slider

Web Spec 4080 Payload

Yellow Door Sticker 3744

GVWR 11,500

Rear Axle Ratings 7,000

Front Axle Ratings 5,200

GCWR 22,500

Tow Rating 15,900

Truck ONLY Weight Cat Scales

Front Axle Weight - 4740

Rear Axle Weight - 3480

Total Weight 8220

Cat Scale With 5er Hooked up

Steering Axle - 5000lbs

Drive Axle 6320

Trailer Axle 10,520

Gross Combine Weight 21,840

Bottom Line

Truck Weight (Truck Only) 8220

Truck Weight (Hitched) 11,320

Camper Weight 13,620

Pin Weight 3,100

Pin Weight Percentage 22.8%

2392 Factory Pin Weight 3100 scale weight increase of 708 pounds

12,226 Factory UVW 13,600 Cat Scale Weight increase of 1374 lbs

Over 50% of the 1374 pounds loaded went to pin weight

Just goes to show how much weight is loaded forward of the axle

Factory Scale weighs of 2392 pin and 12,226 UVW = 19.6 percent pin weight

Cat Scale Weights 13600 GVW and 3100 pin = 22.8 percent pin percentage or increase of 3.2 Percent over Dry percentage

I’m within 180 pounds of my GVWR of my trucks 11,500 GVWR. We were loaded for a week long trip and we are not full timers.

It sets about 1 high in the front but only has 5 inches of clearance between the 5er and the trucks bed rails.

[Elisavaet]

Originally Posted by CWSWine

Here are weights from a from a US Army Helicopter TI and weight and balance NCO.

Specs of a 310GK-R weighted at a CAT scale on 30 Oct 2016

Status from Grand Design Website.

UVW 12,100

Dry Pin Weight 2350

From Grand Design Weight Sheet that came with my 5er and has my VIN listed on the top of the sheet.

GVWR 15,000

GAWR (Per Axle) 7,000

UVW 12226 (Matches Sticker on 5er)

Hitch Weight 2392

Left (Street Side) 5326

Right (Curb Side) 4508

Cargo Carrying Capacity 2714

Truck Specs

Ford F350 Diesel SuperCab 143” Wheel Base 6.5 foot bed.

B&W Campion Hitch non slider

Web Spec 4080 Payload

Yellow Door Sticker 3744

GVWR 11,500

Rear Axle Ratings 7,000

Front Axle Ratings 5,200

GCWR 22,500

Tow Rating 15,900

Truck ONLY Weight Cat Scales

Front Axle Weight - 4740

Rear Axle Weight - 3480

Total Weight 8220

Cat Scale With 5er Hooked up

Steering Axle - 5000lbs

Drive Axle 6320

Trailer Axle 10,520

Gross Combine Weight 21,840

Bottom Line

Truck Weight (Truck Only) 8220

Truck Weight (Hitched) 11,320

Camper Weight 13,620

Pin Weight 3,100

Pin Weight Percentage 22.8%

2392 Factory Pin Weight 3100 scale weight increase of 708 pounds

12,226 Factory UVW 13,600 Cat Scale Weight increase of 1374 lbs

Over 50% of the 1374 pounds loaded went to pin weight

Just goes to show how much weight is loaded forward of the axle

Factory Scale weighs of 2392 pin and 12,226 UVW = 19.6 percent pin weight

Cat Scale Weights 13600 GVW and 3100 pin = 22.8 percent pin percentage or increase of 3.2 Percent over Dry percentage

I’m within 180 pounds of my GVWR of my trucks 11,500 GVWR. We were loaded for a week long trip and we are not full timers.

It sets about 1 high in the front but only has 5 inches of clearance between the 5er and the trucks bed rails.

Thanks Chief! Those are the kind of numbers I was hoping to see, I just wasn't smart enough to ask if someone had them!

One thing that confirms for me is that the payload sticker is optimistic. If you take the payload sticker weight off your gvwr your truck should weigh 7,756 pounds, but you weighed it at the Cat scale at 8,220. That's 464 pounds optimistic. I'm not sure what the manufacturer payload is based on but I'm going to assume a 500 pound margin of error. For one thing, even though SAE J2807 specifies the "towing" rating include 300 pounds for driver and passenger plus hitch, gear, etc., it doesn't say ANYTHING about the payload specification to my knowledge. The Ford brochure does include a 150 pound driver and a tank of fuel for payload ratings as I recall (from earlier in the thread), but then where did that 464 pounds get lost? Until I run a truck across a Cat scale I'm going to assume the payload sticker is between four and five hundred pounds optimistic depending on truck options. You did say you were loaded for a trip though, so perhaps that 464 pounds IS the 500 estimate I'm assuming.

Additionally, the loaded pin weight of 22.8% is a bit surprising. Chad of Changing Lanes RV is running at 21.4% on his slightly over gvwr 43 foot Grand Design toy hauler. I'm going to change my estimates to 23% to be conservative.

It's becoming easier to see why Cypress couldn't keep his Ram 3500 under gross with aux fuel and his 19k RiverStone. The chart below includes only 80 gallons of aux fuel, a 23% pin weight estimate, and 500 pounds for passengers, hitch, tools and gear. The aux fuel comes in at 660 pounds with an estimate of 100 pounds for the aux tank, pump etc. And this chart is based on the payload sticker WITHOUT the 500 pound margin of error. But again, you state you were loaded up, so maybe I'm fine as is. That means I would probably squeak by with a Ram 3500 DRW and up to a 20k fiver.

[rich stumpf]

I just read all 5 pages here and wow it is a little over whelming. We are looking at new DRV triple axle (Houston or Sante Fe) fifth wheel which I was told weighs about 24,000 lbs. gross.
I have been looking at 2016 F450's DRW to pull it with, what do you guys think?
We are weekend warriors at this point and what ever truck I buy will also be my daily driver.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

[Elisavaet]

Originally Posted by rich stumpf

I just read all 5 pages here and wow it is a little over whelming. We are looking at new DRV triple axle (Houston or Sante Fe) fifth wheel which I was told weighs about 24,000 lbs. gross.
I have been looking at 2016 F450's DRW to pull it with, what do you guys think?
We are weekend warriors at this point and what ever truck I buy will also be my daily driver.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

Rich and Kelli,

As you probably noted early in the thread, the F450 has less payload capacity than an F350 (typically) because it's a heavier truck. I haven't looked at 2016's specifically but would be surprised if the payload on them is more than the 2017 and up "aluminum" F450. Let's just say you're looking at about the same apx. 4,800 pounds of payload that a new F450 has.

The 24,000 pound gvwr DRV will probably run between a 4,800 and 6,000 pound pin weight as 5th wheels are "typically" in the 20% to 25% of gvwr on pin weight. So under the very best circumstance, your pin weight puts you at the limit on your payload.

If the DRV has a front W/D hookup and you install them, add a generator up front, load up the pass through storage, etc., you could easily be over 20% on pin weight. I've seen enough reports of 22% to 23% that I'm estimating at 23% now. 23% of 24,000 is 5,520 pounds, around seven hundred pounds over what your payload is. And there are enough people with experience here that caution about estimating at below gvwr. Until you've weighed everything you're going to carry, assume heavy. Also remember the "dry weight" published is typically with zero options. You aren't going to find ANY fiver on the lot with zero options.

Now you have to figure in what you might carry in the cab and in the bed of your F450. If you have less than five hundred pounds of additional weight you're probably doing good, and that's not even counting if you want extra fuel on board at seven pounds per gallon plus the weight of the aux tank itself.

The 2016 F450 has a 37.5 gallon fuel tank. Hauling 24,000 pounds you're probably looking at close to 6 miles per gallon for a range of 225 miles. You're not going to run it to empty, so figure 175 miles between fuel stations. That's about every three hours you're going to have to find a place to pull 38,000 pounds of GCWR in to get fuel. Assuming you don't want to chance the non-truck stop spots because it's all too easy to get jammed into a spot you can't get out of, figure thirty to ninety minutes to get fuel depending on how busy the truck stop is, who is in front of you, etc. I've pulled into a Pilot/Flying J where all eight or so lanes were busy and waited behind a truck that WAS NOT FUELING for a half hour with none of the other trucks moving either before I backed my rig out and headed up the road. Doing that every three hours is a great way to ruin your mood.

Would the F450 easily carry six thousand pounds of payload with air bags? Possibly/probably. It "seems" obvious that it is actually a de-rated class 4 truck. Instead of putting a 16k gvwr on it like they do with a cab and chassis they put a 14k gvwr on it for licensing and tax reasons I guess?

Is it a good idea to run a truck over gvwr? You'll find that argument on here on perhaps dozens, perhaps hundreds of threads. It is exactly the same every time. "I've been doing it for sixty years and have six million miles on my rig running at twice the payload capacity and I'm an engineer who taught aerospace engineering at NASA and I GUARANTEE it'll work!" versus "If you run even one pound over gvwr the FBI has a special SWAT squad staking out highways and will send you to Guantanamo bay and waterboard you to find out who said you could do this and if you have an accident the government has lawyers that will pry out your gold fillings with switchblades and sell them!" It's your truck. Do what you want, but you aren't going to find any sane advice regarding this issue here.

Me personally? If you're only a "weekend warrior" as you say, you might want to consider something smaller. If you have a CDL and have a million miles hauling big and heavy maybe that 24k fiver won't be a problem. Otherwise you might find it's too much rig to haul out for a weekend. Since the truck you get is going to be your daily driver you might find that a dually longer than Elvis' Caddie might be more than you want to run in traffic. A Ram 3500 SRW CC short bed and a Grand Design Reflection 29RS at 11k and 31' that you feel comfortable driving daily and hauling weekly may be better suited. Or maybe not.

Oh, I am an engineer. I agree that it is possible to run a machine beyond design capacity. I just don't agree that it's a good idea in general. But most of the replies that you see that disagree with that opinion are from people that were on the design team for Ford, GM, Dodge, Peterbilt, etc., and personally designed and evaluated these vehicles and can personally vouch that I'm wrong. Ask them to bond you and see what they say. But, I'm being a smarty pants. Old farmer garage mechanic types have gotten a lot out of equipment over the years and still can. Unless you have a pretty well outfitted garage including a MIG and TIG welder, vertical mill, lathe, etc., you might want to just stick to the published specs.

But, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong,



Kate

[rich stumpf]

Thanks for the input Elisavaet, I will take this in consideration going forward!!!!

[tuffr2]

In 2017 Ford greatly improved the frame going from a semi-flexy 'C' channel in 2016 to a fully boxed high strength steel frame.

The redesigned 2017 Ford IMHO is much better than a 2016.

[Duoglide1]

My hitch weight came to exactly 23% but that’s with two trailer axles. The triples May have less.