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Old 09-29-2021, 06:03 PM   #15
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Where will they get the materials to build the batteries ?
Exactly. Not in the United States, if the "environmentalists" have anything to say about it. Huge deposit of lithium - would have been the biggest in the USA - about 70 miles north of where I live and there is already an encampment of protesters living on site to prevent the mine from being developed.
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Down in southern Nevada someone discovered another lithium deposit...but then the "environmentalists" discovered a "rare endangered wildflower" growing on the site...it was just a weed until the lithium mine was proposed. This one got pretty funny...this past summer someone discovered that most of the "wildflowers" were destroyed and the environmentalists accused the mining company of the destruction. So experts went in to investigate and found that the local ground squirrels ate the "wildflowers".
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I'm thinking both projects will eventually go forward. This is a game the "environmentalists" play all the time...after the mining company pays a few million dollars to the protesting organizations the protests will be withdrawn. Just another form of ransom.
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Old 09-29-2021, 06:57 PM   #16
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Exactly. .... Huge deposit of lithium - would have been the biggest in the USA - about 70 miles north of where I live.....
That's what I like about this site, always learn something new.

Drove through this area of Nevada a few years ago. I would have thought the only endangered species was environmental protesters.

LCA (Life Cycle Analysis) per ISO 14000 is the evaluation of cradle to grave environmental impact of doing something.

There is nothing green about storing electricity in batteries, there is nothing green about making electricity with PV panels.

It would be nice if those who want to protect the environment would spend some time taking hard science class to learn how to meet the needs of society with less impact.

Getting off of high following OSHA regs.
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Old 09-29-2021, 07:54 PM   #17
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That's what I like about this site, always learn something new.

Drove through this area of Nevada a few years ago. I would have thought the only endangered species was environmental protesters.

LCA (Life Cycle Analysis) per ISO 14000 is the evaluation of cradle to grave environmental impact of doing something.

There is nothing green about storing electricity in batteries, there is nothing green about making electricity with PV panels.

It would be nice if those who want to protect the environment would spend some time taking hard science class to learn how to meet the needs of society with less impact.

Getting off of high following OSHA regs.
Huh? Sure, the base minerals need to be mined and ,yeah, that can get dirty. Once they are mined though, that stuff is mostly all recycled.

What kind of recycling goes on with the oil and gas pulled from the ground? Can the diesel and gas be reused once it is burned? What about all that fuel used to truck it around, and the energy expended on refining the dirty oil? It's all gone...forever.

There are needs for different energies right now, we all get that. Electric vehicles can be practical for a large percentage of what's on the road.

Let's stop listening to the talking points the Big Oil lobby pits out and spend millions on each year.
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Old 09-29-2021, 08:34 PM   #18
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Get this - there is a solar farm going in at the place I grew up. I left that place because it was too cloudy and rainy. It is 70 miles east of Pittsburgh Pennsylvania. Putting a solar farm there makes no sense to me. They are putting it on the rainy side of a mountain.
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Old 09-30-2021, 07:22 AM   #19
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I hope Ford makes it but I have my doubts. Once people figure out that EVs actually consume a lot more energy than a modern diesel or hybrid the EV revolution will come to an end.
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Old 09-30-2021, 07:38 AM   #20
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I hope Ford makes it but I have my doubts. Once people figure out that EVs actually consume a lot more energy than a modern diesel or hybrid the EV revolution will come to an end.
I do not know how you came to that conclusion. Do you have a link, specification or facts to back your claim?

An electric motor consumes nothing at idle. An internal combustion engine will attain 25-35% efficiency in general. Awesome numbers eh?
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Old 09-30-2021, 08:00 AM   #21
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An electrical drive train loses 35% of the energy put into it by the prime mover on its way to the wheels. A mechanical drive train loses only 6%. For an EV, significant heat energy is lost in electricity transmission and distribution, battery charging, conversion back to AC and in the motor windings. For an ICEV with a mechanical drive only a small amount of heat energy is lost through friction in the gearing.

EVs would be OK if we had free energy to waste, but that's not the case.
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Old 09-30-2021, 09:01 AM   #22
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These EV drivers do need to realize that to generate electricity you need power. I sure hope all the old batteries do not end up with the nuclear waste.
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Old 09-30-2021, 09:08 AM   #23
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An electrical drive train loses 35% of the energy put into it by the prime mover on its way to the wheels. A mechanical drive train loses only 6%. For an EV, significant heat energy is lost in electricity transmission and distribution, battery charging, conversion back to AC and in the motor windings. For an ICEV with a mechanical drive only a small amount of heat energy is lost through friction in the gearing.

EVs would be OK if we had free energy to waste, but that's not the case.
And how much do you think an ICE drivetrain loses overall? If you think only 6% you are fooling yourself, you now that is wrong and total misinformation. Here's a link for the EVs.

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/atv-ev.shtml
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Old 09-30-2021, 09:11 AM   #24
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ICE drivetrain power losses

For a comparison, look at this! https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/atv.shtml

I won't derail the thread much more than this, but it's tiring to discuss with people who have their facts all wrong or cherry pick to disinform people.
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Old 09-30-2021, 09:14 AM   #25
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An EV vehicle still needs metal to build the car, tires, plastic and a other items made from oil. I do not know what is involved in making a battery but it probably uses up some of Earth's resources.
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Old 09-30-2021, 09:21 AM   #26
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An EV vehicle still needs metal to build the car, tires, plastic and a other items made from oil. I do not know what is involved in making a battery but it probably uses up some of Earth's resources.
Pretty much anything you build or produce uses earths resources.

It’s not the “green” aspect of EV’s that sells them to the masses, it’s the test drive and the convenience of fueling at home and always having a “full tank”. It’s pretty much over after that. It will be the same with 1/2 tons.
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Old 09-30-2021, 09:26 AM   #27
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And how much do you think an ICE drivetrain loses overall? If you think only 6% you are fooling yourself, you now that is wrong and total misinformation. Here's a link for the EVs.

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/atv-ev.shtml
The link you provided is not taking into account the loss of energy of the generator at the power plant. When doing a well to wheels energy comparison between an EV and an ICEV you have to include that. Note that diesel engines or gasoline Atkinson engines as found in certain hybrids actually have a better thermal efficiency (40%) than the typical electric power grid (35%).
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Old 09-30-2021, 09:33 AM   #28
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Pretty much anything you build or produce uses earths resources.

It’s not the “green” aspect of EV’s that sells them to the masses, it’s the test drive and the convenience of fueling at home and always having a “full tank”. It’s pretty much over after that. It will be the same with 1/2 tons.
EVs do have a certain attraction for the reasons you mention but towing is not one of them. Also they are so expensive that I don't think they will ever become mainstream.
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