Community Forums

shill · 02-11-2018, 10:16 PM

I loaded my truck as it will be pulling a fifth wheel except I have not added the hitch yet. I do have the factory puck system installed. CAT scales indicated front axle at 5180lbs, rear axle is 4200 and gross weight is 9380. Tow vehicle GVWR is 14000 lbs. GCVWR is 41800lbs. I'm looking for max weight of fully loaded trailer and max pin weight. I've plugged in all the numbers into RV Tow Check, Fifth Wheel Street, E-trailer, and some other suggested towing guidelines and the results are all over the place primarily due to variation in pin weight percentage that is used in the calculation. It's really confusing when trying to decide which fifth wheel to buy that can be towed safely with a fair safety margin. So can someone give me some sound advice about what loaded weight I should tow and explain the figures? Thanks for any help and clarification of a very confusing issue. I do not want to tow in an overloaded condition and be in a white knuckle situation while towing. Thanks.

WA Larry · 02-12-2018, 12:42 AM

Hi shill, so let's say you add that hitch system, some fuel, the dog, etc. and say you scaled out at a nice round 10,000 lbs. So, your towing limitation is going to be your truck's payload, which according to your numbers, we can add an additional 4,000 lbs. of, as pin weight, before going over the truck's GVWR of 14,000lbs. I think that is a good number for you to use, and the math problems now are going to be how to factor that into a new 5er you want to get. Let's say you want a max pin percentage of 25% of the weight of the trailer... 4,000 x 4 = 16,000 GVWR for a new 5er. Can't find anything you want in max GVWR range? You'll have to work the actuals. Your golden number would stay at 4,000 lbs. of pin weight though. If you can reduce the pin weight percentage to 20% of the trailer weight... 4,000 x 5 = 20,000 GVWR 5er now. If you can get the percentage down to 15% you can get a 26,500 GVWR 5er (26,500 x .15 = 3,975).

When shopping though, it's going to be hard to know what your actual pin weight will be until you get the trailer loaded up, and scale everything. What you can pay attention to when looking at floorplans is, "Where is the weight going?" Anything forward of the axles is going to add weight to the pin, anything aft of the axles is going to reduce pin weight. Where are the fresh water and holding tanks, where is the majority of the bay storage, where inside is all of the stuff going to go, etc?

I'm sure some experienced 5er haulers will be here shortly to give their weights, pin %s and advice, so stay tuned, but I hope I've helped a little in your mind at least. Good luck with your search, and happy camping.

tuffr2 · 02-12-2018, 04:30 AM

Wow, your truck weighs 9,380 w/o the hitch? 2017 is the aluminum body, improved frame, more powerful engine I think. The reason I ask is my older steel body F-450 KR with hitch, full fuel, tools, blocks, etc. weighs 8,998lbs. I round up to 9,000lbs with 5,000 lbs on front and 4,000 lbs on back. I weighed my truck multiple times on a rock quarry digital scale and one time on a CAT scale. It never topped 9,000lbs.

I thought the 2017 Ford duallies lost about 400 lbs. 700lbs in the body but added 300 more lbs. to the frame for a net of 400lbs less.

My GVWR is just 13,200. I figured I could tow a max 18,000 lb 5th wheel. Currently towing a 16,000 lb 5th wheel. I towed a friends 18,000lb 5th wheel. It towed the same as my 16,000lb 5th wheel...nice.

Anyway, if I had your very nice truck I would figure about 16,000lbs to 18,000lbs.

If this is your 1st dually as mine was, you will be very pleased at how well these new trucks tow. [emoji106] [emoji106] [emoji106]

buc1908 · 02-12-2018, 08:01 AM

I weight mine no load 8740 lb.2017 F350 crew cab,long bed DRW.

tuffr2 · 02-12-2018, 09:19 AM

buc1908 - what is the GVWR door sticker of your truck?

To the OP - typically you can take the door stickers GVWR minus what the truck weighs loaded to go with full fuel, hitch, blocks, tools, big dog, little wife, cooler etc. In your case, rough guess 14,000 minus 9,500 leaves 4,500 for hitch weight.

So you can buy any 5th wheel with a pin weight of 4,500 lbs or less. That buys even the mid sized custom built New Horizons.

shill · 02-12-2018, 09:57 AM

The CAT scale weight of my truck is completely loaded with the wife, dog, tools, my rear end, and all other incidentals other than the hitch. So that will allow for a pin weight of up to #14000 less 9380. My confusion comes from discussion of the pin weight percentage. Generally, I see numbers from 25%-15%. That is a huge swing when you calculate the trailer weight with 15% pin weight vs 25%. I suppose a happy medium would be round 20% but does that mean 15% would be dangerous? This whole thing is also an annoyance to any F450 owner because of Ford keeping the GVWR at 14000lbs for marketing the truck in Class III. That's absurd but reality from a legal perspective. Basically, Ford is saying that they beefed up the rear axle, added more splines, bigger brakes, a little heavier suspension and much bigger tires to yield a heavier truck that will handle no bigger payload than a 350. That makes sense, right???

Old-Biscuit · 02-12-2018, 10:13 AM

Typical TRAVEL TRAILERS tongue weight......10% -15%

5th Wheel Pin weights.......20% - 25%

Go below 20% pin weight and you will have chucking issues (5th wheel banging back/forth)

Heavier the pin weight the better the 5vr will tow

I tow CAT scaled 13,873# 5th wheel
Pin weight is 3080#....22%
Set up level and tows great

So 20% - 25% is pin weight.....

You have at minimum (14,000 minus 9380) 4620# minus hitch weight (250#)
Leaves you with 4370# before reaching trucks GVWR of 14K

A 20000# GVWR 5th wheel with 22% wet pin weight is 4400#

Course your DUALLY rear axle can handle much higher weight
So 20K plus 5th wheel is reasonable

Stay UNDER trucks RAWR
Stay UNDER trucks rear tire Max Load Ratings
Stay UNDER GCVWR

Good to go!

Oldelevatorman · 02-12-2018, 10:18 AM

Pin weight should be minimum 20%. My Landmark is 18k, pin weight is 4000, so 22%. TV is 2015 F350 DRW 2WD, payload is 5660! You should have at least that much payload or more I would hope! Ford has a max payload of 7650. That's the one I want if we ever upgrade.

1Wheeldrive · 02-12-2018, 12:08 PM

I have a 2015 GMC Sierra 3500 dually, CCLB. With me, a full fuel load, B&W turnover ball and Companion hitch and a tool box in the bed (+/-100 lbs) my truck weighs 8,760 lbs. That leaves me with 4,265 lbs of payload. I tow a Voltage 3200 toyhauler that as delivered (2 full 40 lb propane tanks, and 50 gallons of gasoline) weighed 13,100 lbs with 2,560 lbs (19.5 %) on the pin. When loaded for vacation (with toys) the trailer weighs about 15,700 lbs, about 2,700 lbs on the pin (17.1 %). That pin weight is on the low side of a"recommended" pin weight of 20 -25%. Not sure of the origin of this range of pin weights, but the 2018 edition of the Trailer Life Towing Guide puts the low side of 5th wheel pin weight at 15%. I have never had a noticeable "chucking" problem, and given the generally poor condition of our highways it is hard to lay any blame for chucking on a too lite a pin weight. My experience has been (after 3 toyhaulers) that manufacturer's published weights are very optimistic unless they actually scale the trailer as it goes out the door. Not very many do this.
I'm not convinced that towing a 5th wheel with a 15% pin weight and a properly set up tow vehicle is dangerous, unlike a tow behind trailer that can become untowable with too lite a hitch weight.

JIMNLIN · 02-12-2018, 07:56 PM

Fords F450 pickup has been neutered starting in the '08 era. Before that it had 16k gvwr and 12k RAWR for carrying 7k-8k loads.
Now its a 14k gvwr and small 9900 RAWR.
Your truck rear axle scales in at 4200 lbs leaving it with a 5700 lb in the bed payload.
RAWR= axle/tires/brakes/wheels and spring pack. The F450 has over size brakes for its size according to fleet Ford specs so trailer brakes + truck bracks stop the combo.

Some RV folks use the trucks gvwr for a in the bed payload while some RV folks and every hauler out here on the road making a living with the same truck uses RAWR for figuring how much payload the truck can safely carry in the bed. Its the biggest reason we don't see many if any new F450 pickups in serious commercial service....it simply short on axle payloads.

The truck max numbers have plenty of safety margin built in so those commercial haulers we see legally pulling heavy GN trailers do so for several hundered thousand miles. Pulling a heavy rv is no different.

Pin weight percentages ??
Dry gross weights and the trailer mfg CCC and 20 percent numbers are good number to figure with. Some of the bigger trailers can have 4k-5.5k CCC.
Ford gives the '17 F450 a 32500 GN or a 27500 lb 5th wheel tow ratings .

I would look at trailers in the 18k-20k GVWR range. This will make a nice size trailer plus well within tow rating and a safe in the bed payload.

shill · 02-12-2018, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JIMNLIN

Fords F450 pickup has been neutered starting in the '08 era. Before that it had 16k gvwr and 12k RAWR for carrying 7k-8k loads.
Now its a 14k gvwr and small 9900 RAWR.
Your truck rear axle scales in at 4200 lbs leaving it with a 5700 lb in the bed payload.
RAWR= axle/tires/brakes/wheels and spring pack. The F450 has over size brakes for its size according to fleet Ford specs so trailer brakes + truck bracks stop the combo.

Some RV folks use the trucks gvwr for a in the bed payload while some RV folks and every hauler out here on the road making a living with the same truck uses RAWR for figuring how much payload the truck can safely carry in the bed. Its the biggest reason we don't see many if any new F450 pickups in serious commercial service....it simply short on axle payloads.

The truck max numbers have plenty of safety margin built in so those commercial haulers we see legally pulling heavy GN trailers do so for several hundered thousand miles. Pulling a heavy rv is no different.

Pin weight percentages ??
Dry gross weights and the trailer mfg CCC and 20 percent numbers are good number to figure with. Some of the bigger trailers can have 4k-5.5k CCC.
Ford gives the '17 F450 a 32500 GN or a 27500 lb 5th wheel tow ratings .

I would look at trailers in the 18k-20k GVWR range. This will make a nice size trailer plus well within tow rating and a safe in the bed payload.

If every commercial hauler out there uses RGAW to determine bed payload, then with that reasoning, why would it not make sense to use 5700 lbs as the payload (max pin weight) and that would translate (using 20% pinweight) to a trailer with a GVWR of 22800 lbs.......???

wandering1 · 02-13-2018, 05:04 AM

Real simple. Get the facts not personal opinions. Read the Ford towing specs.

shill · 02-13-2018, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wandering1

Real simple. Get the facts not personal opinions. Read the Ford towing specs.

As I indicated earlier in this thread, I will comply with the Ford specs, in particular the GVWR, Front and Rear axle weight ratios, and payload. However, I still find it annoying that, as JIMNLIN said, Ford has "neutered" the F450. Actually, the whole point of the GVWR being set at the same capacity as the F350 is to keep the 450 in the Class 3 category. With the 450 being in class 3 and in direct competition with the Chevy and Ram 3500's, Ford is able to claim the highest GCVWR and I think also the highest towing capacity, particularly gooseneck. The haulers who are towing over the GVWR or over bed payload are likely quite well aware that Ford has derated the 450 and as a result, they justify in their mind exceeding the Ford specs. Not me, but it would be nice if Ford would simply rate the truck appropriately.

JIMNLIN · 02-13-2018, 08:32 PM

Quote:

If every commercial hauler out there uses RGAW to determine bed payload, then with that reasoning, why would it not make sense to use 5700 lbs as the payload (max pin weight) and that would translate (using 20% pinweight) to a trailer with a GVWR of 22800 lbs.......???

The 5700 lb number is a estimated weight just to show how the math works. If you have the truck then you really should know its front and rear axle weight numbers. I keep a scale axle weight ticket in all my trucks glove box's.

Pin weight doesn't = total payload on the drive axle. Don't forget the weight from a hitch and other gear placed in the bed.