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Old 09-18-2022, 07:03 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by fuelish View Post
I vote this for the towing reply of the year.

I'm of the, you can tow more with less, group. The biggest issue to be aware of when approaching the towing limits of your tow vehicle, is braking. You have to approach driving like it is 2010, where caution was a part of driving. Today driving as fast as one can without giving thought to outcomes is not conducive to maximising your vehicle's towing ability.

Find people who are towing heavier loads and ask them about towing. I met a nice man who for 5 years towed a 5,000 lb travel trailer, unloaded, and had a 7,500, loaded capacity with his plain vanilla Ford 150.

He thought it was a perfect combo. I bought his trailer and towed it with a Porsche Cayenne. I also thought my combo was a good choice.

The people who don't tow with 150s are not the people to ask if it is a good idea to tow.

Mike
Respectfully disagree. I think a lot of the people that don't tow with 1/2 tons can be a great source of info as many have 'been there, done that' and realize that for an 8K+ trailer it's not necessarily the best tool for the job.

I towed my trailer, loaded at 8300 lbs., with a max tow equipped F150. I did not exceed my payload (200 lbs to spare) and 20 lbs to spare on rear axle. So I was essentially pretty much at GVWR. The F150 did an adequate job. But....would I want to have to make an emergency stop/maneuver with it - hell no. 6 months or so towing the grades in Arizona made me rethink this tow vehicle prior to taking it cross country for the first time. I found a 1-ton gasser on the lot and couldn't be happier. The difference is night and day. I would often feel as if the trailer was 'the boss' with the 1/2 ton, not so with the heavier truck. Of course the braking is no comparison either.

This is always a touchy subject. As for me, I'm a believer that the GVWR of a vehicle is put there for a reason. It takes into account frame, axles, tires etc. It's not some arbitrary number pulled out of thin air. Many argue that in some states you can 'register' a vehicle for whatever GVWR you want. That may be so, but I say good luck with that should something happen. What you register a vehicle for can't supersede what's on the government mandated tag placed on the vehicle by the manufacturer, nor can it magically make your tow vehicle more capable.

Just my .02
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Old 09-18-2022, 07:26 PM   #30
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Just remember the tounge weight changes quite a bit between loaded and unloaded, on a toy hauler because of where the axles are located and the cargo area 99% of the Time is behind the axles.
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Old 09-18-2022, 07:34 PM   #31
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I can attest to trying to tow a trailer that is too big for the truck. I moved from a Honda Ridgeline which was white knuckle towing a 26.5' 4,800lb travel trailer. Lots of sway. I bought a F-150 and that was a great match. Same trailer, same WD hitch, could tow solid at 72 mph. Two things the F-150 had over the Ridgeline. Weight and wheelbase. If the OP had a Nissan Titan XD or a F-150 with the 163" wheelbase he would be ok.

But again he could load the trailer light with paper plates, paper cups and plastic ware that would help.
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Old 09-19-2022, 07:19 AM   #32
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Cool ((Update)) Newbie Towing Question

Installed a set of Timbren bump stops and a leaf spring helper that I'm sure did absolutely nothing on my 15 150 3.5 EB Supercrew Lariat along with a load distributing hitch.

Pick up the 2004 28' Innovator Toy Hauler yesterday, the Timbrens worked great , once engaged the truck stayed level no serious squat and the ride was fine , although I had no problem and the trailer and it towed well it was definitely a little much for the 3.5EB , any hopes of a winter trip have definitely been dashed... I'd say my biggest concern towing the trailer was breaking , the trailer/tow setting on the truck definitely helped by automatically downshifting coming to a stop.. The primary purpose of buying this trailer is to bring up to land where I'm building a house so I have someplace to stay and keep my tools... When the house is In done I'll trade for a larger truck and be hitting the road!!

Thank you all for you input It was greatly appreciated!!
Happy Motoring!!!
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Old 09-19-2022, 09:50 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by mistercee View Post
Respectfully disagree.

Just my .02
Having towed more with less makes your opinion worthwhile and the OP should consider your experience. You obviously didn't die nor I assume did you crash and burn with your adequately sized tow vehicle. Not everybody has the money nor inclination to buy a huge tow vehicle that is used sporadically.

I agree a huge truck provides benefits for towing but it is hell to live with for many people. My point is that it is not necessary to have a Peterbuilt tow vehicle to enjoy rving. When I drive any RV I drive defensively because even a huge TV is not that nimble. If you're on the road very much; you will see all sizes of RV's wrecked.

Mike
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Old 09-19-2022, 09:55 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by fuelish View Post
The people who don't tow with 150s are not the people to ask if it is a good idea to tow.

Mike
I think the people who haven't towed with multiple tow vehicles are not the people to ask. ...Certainly not the people that have bought into confirmation bias to convince themselves that their half ton can tow anything.

I have 9 trucks ranging from and F150 2wd and a Ram 1500 Hemi to several 3/4 tons, 1 tons and one dually. I also have 8 trailers ranging from 2,000 lbs to 12,000 lbs. I think a half ton truck is a perfectly fine tow vehicle for an appropriate trailer and we tow with ours all the time.......but EVERY truck has limits and the smart driver knows where they are. Using dry weights and manufacturer's maximum tow ratings will get you into trouble most of the time.

2 cents.
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Old 09-19-2022, 01:02 PM   #35
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Towing Capacity

Light duty, non-commercial vehicles are designed for commuting, shopping and stuff like that. Towing is a compromise for these vehicles and is designed to be less than 25% of the vehicles use and 75 % of the rated capacity over its usable life.
Whereas, commercial vehicles are designed to carry up to the maximum designed weight for 100% of the vehicles service life. This not to be published inside information was related to me by a GMC/Peterbilt salesman at F.B. Hart trucks in Sacramento almost 40 years ago.

Towing capacity
Lets assume your towing vehicle has a manufacturers published towing capacity of 5,000 Lbs, and four wheel drive (4x4) vehicles usually have less towing capacity than their two wheel drive (2x4) versions for any given model.
The 2008 Navigator 4x4 is 7,000 Lbs and the 2x4 is 8,000 Lbs both with the heavy duty factory towing package. Towing specifications are based on combination vehicle posted maximum speed limit of 70 MPH as seen in many states.
Identifying a 1/2 ton Ford Motor Company vehicle such as F-150 pickup, Expedition and Navigator with the heavy duty towing package at a glance is quite simple. There will be both 4 and 7 pin trailer cord receptacles and 6 stud wheels. Other light duty pickup and SUV manufacturers may be the same but I am most familiar with Ford products.

Trailer Gross weight, includes the basic structure, water, propane, clothes, food, adult beverages, etc.
Another consideration is trailer frontal area limitation. The Navigator limitation as specified in the owners manual is 60 sq ft. Our Lance 1985 is 54 sq ft. As a rule of thumb every square foot of trailer frontal area in excess of the towing vehicle manufacturers maximum limit reduces towing capacity by 100 Lbs. Theoretically in our situation that gives another 600 Lbs towing capacity at 70 MPH.

Your 5,000 Lbs towing capacity must now be corrected.
First, subtract the towing vehicle passengers and cargo, probably 500 Lbs.
So, before the trailer is connected you are down to 4,500 Lbs towing capacity.

The rolling resistance of most highway surfaces is 3%.
Since we live where there are mountains the grades have to be considered.
Highway 50 is 8% in places even though all federal highways are not supposed to more than 6%.
So here it is, 4,500 * (.03 rolling resistance + .06 grade ) = 495 Lbs
4,500 - 495 = 4,005 Lbs.
4,005 * .75 towing limit = 3,004 Lbs

This corrected towing capacity of 3,004 Lbs with a 3,500 Lbs trailer is not good. What happens here is the service life of the towing vehicle will be reduced due to the engine/transmission/drive line/axle bearing heat and wear. And, of course, when the MTBF (Mean Time Between Failure) catches up with you it could leave you stranded in a very awkward or even dangerous situation.

Towing at 55 - 60 MPH reduces towing vehicle stress and fuel consumption as wind resistance is the square of the velocity.

Ascents and descents are a matter of fact especially in the Western United States. Pulling grades is a compromise of road speed, fuel consumption and vehicle wear and tear. For example, pulling US 50 West out of Carson City is the 9 mile Spooner ascent. The Navigator/Lance 1985 GCVW (Gross Combination Vehicle Weight) is close to 12, 500 Lbs. This was verified on a certified CAT truck scale in Tehachapi California. A good pulling and downhill gear for the Navigator ZF 6 speed are 3rd and 4th on the US highway and Interstate 6 % grades. Spooner Westbound for example; 99 OAT, 50 MPH, 2,500 RPM, 9 - 10 GPH, 210 - 215 WT, 203 - 208 TFT, A/C on. Descending Spooner Eastbound the same gears are used and with the lock-up torque converter and engine braking typical readings are 175 - 185 WT, 160 - 165 TFT, 3 - 4 GPH. The service brakes are rarely required until the stop light at the US 50 / US 395 junction.

Even though our Navigator is equipped with the heavy duty towing package the engine oil capacity remained the same as vehicles without towing packages. Replaced the stock tea cup oil filter with a remote oil filter adapter with AN-8 (1/2-inch - id) stainless braided hoses and 7 row aluminum oil cooler. Instead of the PER-1 type of filter normally used I chose the Baldwin BT238 It is designed for engine lube oil or hydraulic system oil. And has filtration specifications equal to the NAPA Gold stock oil filter. The Ford factory filtration specs were not available. The BT238 holds not quite 1 1/2 quarts. Added a remote filter adapter and BT238 to the transmission cooling circuit as well. Since the Navigator tows more than half of its miles oil change intervals are 5, 000 miles with 5W-40 full synthetic Castrol. The transmission external oil filter is also changed at these intervals, prefilled with MERCON V ATF.

Towing speeds are limited by posted speed limits, traffic conditions and of course, common sense. Oh yes, I forgot to mention trailer tire maximum rated speed. In our case its 75 MPH. However that is at what tire temperature. Our TPMS indicates that with an OAT (Outside Air Temperature) above 100 degrees the tire temperatures for the towing vehicle drive axle tires and trailer tires increase significantly. And of course you always know where the sun is by looking at the TPMS monitor. On a recent trip the OAT reached 113 degrees. Sixty MPH kept all reading below 140 degrees. My over temperature tire alarm is set for 160 degrees.
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Old 09-19-2022, 02:56 PM   #36
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My F-250 2WD gas engine truck has 3,497 lbs. of cargo capacity. I do not know what a F-250 with the new 7.3 gas engine truck's cargo capacity is but I bet it is close to the 6.2. 4X4 would take maybe 300 lbs. Which would give approx 3,000lbs of cargo.
Good point, the F250 gas models have way higher payload capacity due to the lighter weight. An F250 diesel is a waste of money as it adds to much weight that you are pretty quickly over the 'limit' on payload. And the rear end is just not the same as the F350 even though the front end is basically the same. If you get diesel then get an F350 so you can actually use the power the engine and drive train has
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Old 09-19-2022, 06:00 PM   #37
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Good point, the F250 gas models have way higher payload capacity due to the lighter weight. An F250 diesel is a waste of money as it adds to much weight that you are pretty quickly over the 'limit' on payload. And the rear end is just not the same as the F350 even though the front end is basically the same. If you get diesel then get an F350 so you can actually use the power the engine and drive train has
Actually the rear end is usually the same; in fact an F250 diesel has a Dana M275 and the F350 SRW gasser has a lighter duty Sterling axle unless you order the 4.30 gears. In some trim levels (Tremor for eg.) the F250 and F350 are identical except badging and stickers....even springs.

Yes, the F350SRW has a higher payload sticker....but don't be fooled thinking you are buying heavier duty components. That said, I'd buy an F350SRW just for the sticker since it's a relatively small upcharge.


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Old 09-20-2022, 07:12 AM   #38
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Actually the rear end is usually the same; in fact an F250 diesel has a Dana M275 and the F350 SRW gasser has a lighter duty Sterling axle unless you order the 4.30 gears. In some trim levels (Tremor for eg.) the F250 and F350 are identical except badging and stickers....even springs.

Yes, the F350SRW has a higher payload sticker....but don't be fooled thinking you are buying heavier duty components. That said, I'd buy an F350SRW just for the sticker since it's a relatively small upcharge.


Dave
That is not correct. The rear end is NOT the same and does not have the same springs on the F250 and F350. Believe me I know, as I had both trucks with the same fiver. It was just way too sketchy with the F250 and upgrading to an F350 made a world of difference.
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Old 09-20-2022, 10:03 AM   #39
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That is not correct. The rear end is NOT the same and does not have the same springs on the F250 and F350. Believe me I know, as I had both trucks with the same fiver. It was just way too sketchy with the F250 and upgrading to an F350 made a world of difference.
Actually I AM correct; the springs and rear end used vary depending on engine, gearing and options. You may well have had a heavier rear and heavier springs on YOUR F350 compared to YOUR F250, but that is NOT necessarily true in all cases. For example a Tremor package equipped F250 and F350 share the same rear and same springs.

All you would have had to do to have the same "world of difference" feel was to upgrade the springs on your F250.....the rest of the truck is virtually identical. I have no dog in this fight; my F350 dually actually does have a heavier rear end than you can get in an F250; the Dana 300 which is used only on F350 DRW's, F450's, 550's...

Read: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...rxw/edit#gid=0

As per that chart; If you get an F250 diesel with the HDTP you get the heavier Dana M275 axle. If you order an F350SRW gasser it comes with the smaller Sterling 10.5 unless you order 4.30 gears. Yes, if you order a standard F250 diesel it gets the Stirling and if you order a standard F350 diesel, it gets the Dana......OTOH, both get the same rear if you order a standard gas engine. As I said, it depends on engines, packages and options but you can't assume your F350 badge means a truck has a heavier rear than all F250's.

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Old 09-20-2022, 11:44 AM   #40
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Any trailer over 5000 LBS needs to be pulled with a Peterbilt, anything smaller and you are going to crash into a church bus full of nuns in a fiery inferno.

Oh heck now I sound like the towing "experts" online
ha,ha,ha i like it!!!!
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Old 09-20-2022, 11:56 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by LuvLakeLivin View Post
New to Rving and this site.. I own a 2015 F150 Supercrew Lariat, 3.5 Ecoboost, I'm buying a 2003 24' Haulmark Innovator Toy Hauler, (good luck finding specs) the rigs condition is a strong 7.5+ out of 10..

The GVWR of the trailer is 9990 and dose come with a weight distribution hitch.. Now the 3.5 Ecoboost has a max tow capacity of 12200 and I'm putting in a set of Timbren bump stops to help with sag.. My question is will my truck be ok towing the trailer? Although it's primary purpose will be to stay in as I build cottage in Northern NH, I would like to escape South for a few weeks this winter with my motorcycle...

Thanks for reading any input would be greatly appreciated...

Woody in NH
"putting in a set of Timbren bump stops to help with sag" i would research useing air bags they are adjustible and have a smoother ride. when not towing you can let the air out for a comfortable ride and as you add weight you can add air to compensate. the Timbren is just a block of rubber.
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Old 09-20-2022, 02:32 PM   #42
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As usual when a question will my F150 (or 3/4 ton truck) tow this trailer they never give us a gvwr/rawr number. Without knowing that there can be no specific yes or no answer.

Ford markets F150 trucks with around 19 different GVWRs from 6000 on up to 8200 lbs depending on year models.
But more importantly the F150 has 5 different RAWR from 3100 up to 4800 lbs.

Generally packages match up run about like this at the top...
F150 HDPP 8200-7850 gvwr ....4800 rawr about 2500 lb max payload.

F150 7550 gvwr...4550 rawr with approx 2300 lb payload.

F150 7050 gvwr...4050 rawr with around 1800-1900 lb payload.

F150 6800 gvwr...3800 rawr approx 1500 lb payload

F150 6100 gvwr... 3100 rawr around 900-1000 lbs payload.

F150 also comes in three different frame sizes/thicknesses...different brake specs....engine cooling systems and many other differences.

Gvwr...rawr comes from fleet Ford specs website.....actual payload depends on actual scaled separate front and rear axle weights with attention to a trucks rawr as its carrying all the trailer hitch weight and gear in the bed.

Some folks simply bought the wrong F150 for their trailer.....and some have never read Fleet Ford mechanical spec website on all F150 truck gvwr/rawr packages marketed over the years.

Some 3/4 ton truck comments......too funny... no use going there and hijack the OP F150 question.

However the OP now has the trailer for his truck and it handles fine for him.
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