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Old 09-20-2020, 08:51 PM   #1
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Spitballing a new truck Ö from a long ways away Ö.

I mentioned in another thread how insane the pre-owned full size truck market seems to be, as I have been focusing on 4-5 year old options. I can’t pay 60K for a truck. I can pay 40K but not for a used one. Somewhere in between 40 and 60 it gets murky.

So I entered the rabbit hole of looking at new (2020) offerings. Ooops.

This is not an urgent or imminent decision, my timeline is 0–3 years, but I could move on it in a few months if I want.

Anyone want to have a conversation while I try to make a few decisions so I can narrow down what I am looking at? Basically, sell me on a new 3/4 truck, but based on these requirements:
  • Gas Engine. 3/4 Ton.
  • “Daily Driver” but “Daily” means 2 or 3 times a week, short trips. No commute for work. Will tow monthly or more.
  • To pull a light weight Fifth Wheel: 29’, GVWR 9900 Lb, Pin Weight 1900 lb.
  • Will also pull a TT with GVWR 7000 Lb, Tg Wt 990 lb.
  • Truck payload: Two Passengers (400 Lb high estimated, you try getting the better half on a scale), Provisions (220 Lb scale verified) .
  • 4x4 likely for occasional non towing related needs. Occasional off season mountain trips involve snow/mud.
  • Center High Mount Bed Camera .
  • IBC, Towing mirrors, Bed 7 Pin/ 5th wheel prep.
  • I can go either way on cab size… Would normally default to a crew, but I think I can get my 65 qt cooler on the floor behind a Ford Super Cab. I am sure I can get it behind a Ram Crew Cab. Ram Mega Cab seems too much…
  • Rear cab will be used for gear 95% of the time or empty. Flat floor is probably a must. (I don’t know if that is a standard feature cross brands?)
  • I like short beds for general non trailer driving…. but I could be persuaded, I think, on a long bed SuperCab maybe?
  • Front console (instead of bench) might be nice, but absolutely NOT a requirement, especially with the fold down consoles.
  • Work Truck is fine ... but don't want it to look like a black plastic work truck ....
  • Larger fuel tank would be nice …….
I’ll add, real quick evaluations have me almost dismissing the GM trucks, and I am not sure why. I think maybe the Chevrolets are ugly and GMCs are expensive? I don’t know, they don’t jump out at me and I am not sure why.
I have been somewhat Ford brand loyal, but not overly so. I think I like the idea of a SuperCrew LB from Ford maybe? It feels like the default.

But, the Ram 2500 might be in the lead. My real quick perusal seems to suggest it is a little easier fitting out a Tradesman how I want it than fitting out an XL (or W/T), and the Standard 8 Speed/6.4 Hemi gets adequate reviews for my non Diesel requirement. Plus … the sound of having the option to get a 50 gallon fuel tank with the Ram sounds great. But these Ram options add up in price.

I know that’s rambling, and this topic is 100% subjective … but anyone want to play along?
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Old 09-20-2020, 10:05 PM   #2
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My main comment is about this statement
"To pull a light weight Fifth Wheel: 29’, GVWR 9900 Lb, Pin Weight 1900 lb."

WET Pin weight (trailer loaded camp ready) will be closer to 2200# vs 1900#

Base 'curb' rear axle weight of truck subtracted from RAWR will give you a 'guestimate' of how much weight can be added to Rear Axle before reaching RAWR

IMHO
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Old 09-20-2020, 10:47 PM   #3
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Right now isnít really a good time to buy a new truck. The production is lowered due to the pandemic so you wonít get much of a deal.

I just bought a 2020 F250 7.3 gasser crewcab XLT shortbed ($56950 MSRP). The negotiation part is really tough cause these crewcab superduty will fly off the lot within 1 week after delivery. I ended up paying $52600 before tax tag and fees. I have to say this is not a good deal, I probably can save another $5-7K if I buy it last year or next year. Or paying the same amount for a Lariat trim (although I absolutely hate Leather seat and push start). But I have to buy now, so I swallow the hard pill.

It looks like the F250 7.3 gasser will satisfy your need. My truck at the cc configuration has 2995 lb payload. You should be able to get a XL with STX package super cab in low-mid $40k (I was quoted for a XL STX crewcab for $45000). The Super Cab should have more payload.

My advice is wait until the Ford production catch up. Or if you are not picky on the brand, go with Ram. I was quoted very good price on their 1 ton Cummins with Aisin tranny. Pretty much the same price as the Ford 7.3 gasser. I guess itís because Ram is made in Mexico, where they didnít have the shutdown. But I personally isnít a Fiat fan and donít need a diesel.

Forgot about Chevy, I canít find any moderately equipped 2500 6.6 gasser within 100 miles. They were reserved even before these truck hit the lot. Whatever left on the lot is either strangely equipped or really high end trim like high country(north of $75k).
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Old 09-21-2020, 04:52 AM   #4
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Agree with, wait until production exceeds demand or is more closely matched.

New trucks, to me are the way to go. The new gas engines and or transmissions are worth the $$$.

Do not eliminate the GM trucks. I test drove a 2500 Custom trim level truck and it drove really nice. The 6.6 litre gas engine is a big jump better than the old 6.0 gasser.
GM really improved the frame, which makes the truck feel very solid. I liked this truck more than my 2017 F-250 6.2 gasser.
GM is the only truck with independent front suspension.

Ford has the 7.3 Godzilla gas engine but for what you want to do the 6.2 Boss engine would also work. Ford recalibrated the suspension and the steering is lighter making the truck very easy to drive. I would look for a 2020 F-250 and 6.2 litre gas engine.

Ram has the new 8 speed with the 6.4 litre Hemi and a new frame in 2019 which improved the truck.

More used info - the 2017 and newer Ford 6.2 gas trucks are pretty nice. New solid feeling frame and a slightly more powerful gas engine and aluminum body makes the truck drive nice.

Back to GM trucks - I think it would be easy to find a 2500HD 6.6 litre gas truck with a 11,300 GVWR and 5th wheel prep package. At least the 1st GM 2500HD truck Custom truck I saw had those features.

I am cooling to the 10speed transmissions as I want to wait to see of reliable they are.

I my mind:

2020 Ford's and GM's are very close. Maybe I like the GM better.
The Ram that I test drove felt clumsy and the steering was not as good as Ford or GM.

Try to drive a few trucks to make up your own mind.

Good luck
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Old 09-21-2020, 06:26 AM   #5
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I would wait, even Dennis Dillon is not showing low prices. https://www.dennisdillonchryslerjeep...V+Transmission
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Old 09-21-2020, 06:33 AM   #6
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Thanks for all the input. Some comments to all:

- As said before, my timeline is 0-3 years, don't need to jump, but "could". It should be obvious to readers I understand the crazy market right now. Again, long range spitballing.
-I do have access to corporate partner pricing plans for 2 of these makers ... not the best deal one can get, but does remove some headaches of you want, especially during markets like these. Normally anyone should be able to beat these plans ... maybe not right now though.
- My pulling numbers are more than theoretical. They are based on actual numbers, with some conservative padding. 5er pin loaded is indeed ~1900. CVWR was lower than 9900 listed... Hopefully 3500+ payloads make this irrelevant further.
- Regarding the Ford gas engines, I was definitely speccing the boss.
- I will need to do some hands on with all of them of course.
- Strange to hear the Ram described as clunky. It seems like lots of folks praise the new Ram's driving feel. hmmm.

Thanks again for helping me spitball.
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Old 09-21-2020, 08:45 AM   #7
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I will agree with you that most of the Chevy trucks are ugly, especially on the front end, and i'm a GM guy. Take a look at the GMCs and they appear more refined style-wise, but are the same truck behind the grille.

An older GM gas 6.0 is more than enough to handle those trailer sizes so I'm really not worried about a 6.6 gas with 20% more HP and even more torque. Pricing between 2 GM brands doesn't appear much different up here.

Not to bash RAM, but FCA (Fiat Chrysler Automobiles) has had loads of reliability issues especially on the electricals and electronics end. I know because I have a repair shop and see this weekly. That's not to say GM and Ford never have issues, it's just that they dont appear to make up the large percentage of breakdowns FCA has.

I'm not a big Ford Fan but I think I'd take one before a RAM, at least the resale would likely be better and sell quicker once I'm done with it.

Most Gas engines from the big 3 will do the job in that weight range. Best be double-checking payload numbers on 2500 RAMs before signing on the dotted line. Some of them have weak payload #s. 2020 GM/Chevy have the highest payloads and rival some 3500 SRW of the other brands.

Don't discount 3500SRW trucks. Driving feel,size, fuel economy and maintenance costs will be virtually identical to a 2500. Purchase cost can be very,very close and in some instances less than a 2500. What changes things up here is licensing costs are higher with high GVWR stamped on the door.
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Old 09-21-2020, 09:45 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kdauto View Post
I will agree with you that most of the Chevy trucks are ugly, especially on the front end, and i'm a GM guy. Take a look at the GMCs and they appear more refined style-wise, but are the same truck behind the grille.

Aint that the truth?


Quote:
Originally Posted by kdauto View Post
Not to bash RAM, but FCA (Fiat Chrysler Automobiles) has had loads of reliability issues especially on the electricals and electronics end. I know because I have a repair shop and see this weekly. That's not to say GM and Ford never have issues, it's just that they dont appear to make up the large percentage of breakdowns FCA has.
I hear you, and would have agreed if you said this 3 years ago. Chrysler/Daimler/Jeep(for the most part) and now FCA does not instill confidence in me and had a very bad run for many years. And that includes Cummins from some personal experience. BUT I think the newer Rams are different, I really do. I am not an expert and appreciate your POV.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kdauto View Post
Most Gas engines from the big 3 will do the job in that weight range. Best be double-checking payload numbers on 2500 RAMs before signing on the dotted line. Some of them have weak payload #s. 2020 GM/Chevy have the highest payloads and rival some 3500 SRW of the other brands.
Yeah, I am not too worried about Gas performance. I am used to not breaking speed records, and find that despite my rigs modest capabilities I am rarely the one causing the slow downs as it is.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kdauto View Post
Don't discount 3500SRW trucks. Driving feel,size, fuel economy and maintenance costs will be virtually identical to a 2500. Purchase cost can be very,very close and in some instances less than a 2500. What changes things up here is licensing costs are higher with high GVWR stamped on the door.
I won't discount 1 tons, but not targeting them either. I hope I made it clear in my OP that I am focused on payload numbers so the 3/4 configs I am looking at have all specced out well above what I will need.

Where I am there is a small additional cost (and potentially marginal hassle) to register a 1 ton..... Not a deal breaker, but also something I would rather not do everything else being equal. I actually don't know if it changes insurance costs for me but I doubt it does.

Thanks for the feedback.
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Old 09-21-2020, 10:49 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuffr2 View Post
Agree with, wait until production exceeds demand or is more closely matched.

New trucks, to me are the way to go. The new gas engines and or transmissions are worth the $$$.

Do not eliminate the GM trucks. I test drove a 2500 Custom trim level truck and it drove really nice. The 6.6 litre gas engine is a big jump better than the old 6.0 gasser.
GM really improved the frame, which makes the truck feel very solid. I liked this truck more than my 2017 F-250 6.2 gasser.
GM is the only truck with independent front suspension.

Ford has the 7.3 Godzilla gas engine but for what you want to do the 6.2 Boss engine would also work. Ford recalibrated the suspension and the steering is lighter making the truck very easy to drive. I would look for a 2020 F-250 and 6.2 litre gas engine.

Ram has the new 8 speed with the 6.4 litre Hemi and a new frame in 2019 which improved the truck.

More used info - the 2017 and newer Ford 6.2 gas trucks are pretty nice. New solid feeling frame and a slightly more powerful gas engine and aluminum body makes the truck drive nice.

Back to GM trucks - I think it would be easy to find a 2500HD 6.6 litre gas truck with a 11,300 GVWR and 5th wheel prep package. At least the 1st GM 2500HD truck Custom truck I saw had those features.

I am cooling to the 10speed transmissions as I want to wait to see of reliable they are.

I my mind:

2020 Ford's and GM's are very close. Maybe I like the GM better.
The Ram that I test drove felt clumsy and the steering was not as good as Ford or GM.

Try to drive a few trucks to make up your own mind.

Good luck
There are two reasons why I chose Ford over Chevy gasser:

1. Ford new 7.3 gasser is big block vs small block Chevy 6.6 motor. My past experience tells me go for the big block over the small for longevity.

2. Ford 7.3 is port injection vs direct injection for the Chevy 6.6. I could see some future carbon buildup problem. It can happen as early as 40,000 miles, depends on how you drive. It would be great if Chevy adopt Toyota combo technology, which uses both port and direct injection to keep the engine clean but also more efficient.

FYI, Ford 7.3 is not bulletproof, now people are reporting spark plug wire problem. Although itís only a $24 part, it can still incapacitate the truck and cause misfire. So, time will tell which new gas motor is more reliable. I put my faith in Ford.
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Old 09-21-2020, 01:27 PM   #10
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I wouldnít put my faith in any manufacturer. They all have their issues. They all make adjustments on reliability flaws. I am not brand loyal to anyone, and I make purchases on my own research and what feels the best for me. That could be a Ford one year, and Chevy, or Ram the next.
But if you can wait, now is not a great time to purchase new, unless you have a newer trade that will bring higher than normal value. Salary, and construction workers are driving the sales due to lower interest rates. Early next year I think we will start to see a slow down in sales, thus higher incentives.
Back in 2017 received 16k off a Ram truck, with a lifetime power train at Dennis Dillon, not seeing anything close to that anymore.
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Old 09-21-2020, 04:28 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bneukam View Post
I wouldnít put my faith in any manufacturer. They all have their issues. They all make adjustments on reliability flaws. I am not brand loyal to anyone, and I make purchases on my own research and what feels the best for me. That could be a Ford one year, and Chevy, or Ram the next.
But if you can wait, now is not a great time to purchase new, unless you have a newer trade that will bring higher than normal value. Salary, and construction workers are driving the sales due to lower interest rates. Early next year I think we will start to see a slow down in sales, thus higher incentives.
Back in 2017 received 16k off a Ram truck, with a lifetime power train at Dennis Dillon, not seeing anything close to that anymore.
Yes:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Klompus
- As said before, my timeline is 0-3 years, don't need to jump, but "could". It should be obvious to readers I understand the crazy market right now. Again, long range spitballing.
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Old 09-21-2020, 06:11 PM   #12
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Another thing I did not see mentioned is the changes in trucks that will be made in the next 3 years. Who knows? but I bet in three years trucks will be nicer than they are today.

I heard new interiors to compete with the fancy Ram interior and more safety features.
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Old 09-21-2020, 06:44 PM   #13
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I feel like 2200 lbs + pin weight your close to max load in the bed for a 3/4 ton 250/2500. I think you will find the rear springs ride fairly good in the new 2020 3500 SRW GM trucks . My daily driver has been a GMC 3500 for the last 10 years. My current truck is comfortable with 2900lbs of pin weight and no air bags. My current trailer has 3600lbs of pin and that is to much for a SRW truck, it feels heavy and overloads the tires on the rear end.
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Old 09-21-2020, 07:08 PM   #14
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Quote:
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I feel like 2200 lbs + pin weight your close to max load in the bed for a 3/4 ton 250/2500. I think you will find the rear springs ride fairly good in the new 2020 3500 SRW GM trucks . My daily driver has been a GMC 3500 for the last 10 years. My current truck is comfortable with 2900lbs of pin weight and no air bags. My current trailer has 3600lbs of pin and that is to much for a SRW truck, it feels heavy and overloads the tires on the rear end.
Why do you think trucks with a payload of 3600 pounds will not handle 2200 pounds pin weight?

Also, It's not 2200 pounds pin weight. Its about 1900 plus the non pin payload in my example.
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