Truthful Payload Article

[Old-Biscuit]

Out of class citation
CA does that.............but it is NOT a over MFG GVWR citation
It is NOT Having the Proper Drivers License to tow the size/weight of the recreational trailer


AXLE/Tire Ratings have legal status
MFG GVWR/Payload numbers do not

Commercial towing and Recreational Towing are 2 different separate unrelated entities

[tuffr2]

You guys know laws change all the time. Why do the new GM trucks have the J2804 sticker. That is new information. All it takes is one state representative get a you know what up you know where to introduce a new law.

[JIMNLIN]

also makes a huge difference uf your looking at commercial or recreational weight statutes. need to keep those separate.

A one ton DRW truck/trailer in commercial service uses the same motor vehicle axle weight code violation as a non commercial one ton DRW truck/trailer axle overload violation.
Other areas that can be different such as declaring a operational GVW or a GCW or med cards or CDL requirements or IFTA sticker or scale house stops or ...a host of other requirements recreational vehicles don't use.

[sirtate]

Originally Posted by JIMNLIN

A one ton DRW truck/trailer in commercial service uses the same motor vehicle axle weight code violation as a non commercial one ton DRW truck/trailer axle overload violation.

Other areas that can be different such as declaring a operational GVW or a GCW or med cards or CDL requirements or IFTA sticker or scale house stops or ...a host of other requirements recreational vehicles don't use.

With RVs axle weights are the sticky parts with the DOT...

Where people get confused is when they register the tow vehicle... The license bureau asks all sorts of questions like;
what is the weight of your trailer?
and what is the gross combined weight you need to carry?

Do you remember when station wagons could tow campers?
I do...

People would load up their Buick RoadMaster wagon equipped with the 4.31 rear end a 427 engine (maybe the 454?!), With the trailering springs, and hook up the 25ft 9000# trailer...

The rules we are debating were written before pick-up trucks were the only vehicles 'heavy' enough to tow a 9kip trailer...

How did a Buick manage the legalities?

Because GVWR and GCVWR only apply to vehicles in commercial service...

GAWR is what is king when you are towing a 'house trailer' for recreational use...

It's funny; the guy who dragged your trailer from the factory to your dealership has to worry about GCVWR and GVWR in his (sexist, I know) 1ton dually pickup, but your identical TV when used for recreation does not...

[JIMNLIN]

Because GVWR and GCVWR only apply to vehicles in commercial service...

I've seen other rv owners who say they have to register their trucks at a GCWR or a GVWR and other weight terms their state uses.

However your correct on GVWR/GCWR on lets say a one ton DRW pulling a heavy GN trailer over 26001 lbs for commercial work.
The way the GCWR works can be the DRW has a 9900 rawr and 6000 fawr = a 15900 gvwr for registration purposes.
Now the big GN trailer with 10k dual tandem axle can be registered at 20000 lbs gvwr .
Now the vehicle owner has to declare a working gross combined weight rating which can be the sum of the trucks 15900 lbs and trailers 20000 lbs axle rating for a working 35900 lb GCW. But the truck cannot exceed its FAWR/RAWR nor the trailer axle weight ratings.
This is where dot uses the term GVWR / or a GCWR which creates so much confusion on RV websites.

Every vehicle on the road comes under axle/tire load rating motor vehicle codes.

My first commercial tow came in '1964 with a '58 3/4 ton GMC so yeah I was around when station wagons...full size sedans and panel trucks done most of the towing for work or play.
My trucks have always been used for both.... then and now.

[77Travco]

Originally Posted by move on

If you go by the door sticker and keep it under the gvr and gawr then you'll be safe, legal and within the warranty.

That's the point some people are talking about here. The yellow sticker may or may not be realistic to the vehicle.
Example: A modern Ford SuperDuty F-250 will have a yellow sticker that will never exceed the 10K lb mark yet some F-250's are actually more capable than some f-350's with a higher number because the F-350's are not artificially capped for registration purposes.
I agree that if someone just can't wrap their head around all of this... then yes, they should just go with the payload sticker but there is so much more to it than that.

[CWSWine]

You guys are stuck in the past using old standards. Using the axle weights in to set the payload is a thing of the past with the new safety regulations that manufactures need to adhere to.


By Bob Raybuck
Director of Technical Services
NTEA
Often, GVWR and gross vehicle weight (GVW) are thought to be the same, but they are not. A truck’s GVWR is the maximum weight rating established by the chassis manufacturer. GVW is the total weight of the truck and payload at a point in time.

There’s a common misconception that a truck’s GVWR is determined by adding gross axle weight ratings (GAWRs) together for all axles. Although this was a common way of calculating GVWR many years ago, it’s no longer an accurate method. The chassis manufacturer task of establishing a vehicle GVWR is much more difficult today due to advancement of safety system standards and how vehicles meet these requirements. This is why many trucks have a GVWR much lower than the combined axle ratings. It is not uncommon for a truck with a GVWR of 19,500 pounds to have a front axle rated at 7,500 pounds and a rear axle rated at 14,700 pounds. Safety standards that apply to braking, vehicle stability, and chassis manufacturer internal standards for durability, dynamic stability and handling can restrict GVWR even though the sum of the axle ratings exceeds 22,000 pounds. In this instance, the OEM set the GVWR at 19,500 pounds based on test results and vehicle dynamic performance to ensure a safe, reliable truck.

By Bob Raybuck
Director of Technical Services
NTEA “

https://drivewyze.com/blog/trucking-...g-work-trucks/

[sirtate]

Originally Posted by JIMNLIN

I've seen other rv owners who say they have to register their trucks at a GCWR or a GVWR and other weight terms their state uses.



However your correct on GVWR/GCWR on lets say a one ton DRW pulling a heavy GN trailer over 26001 lbs for commercial work.

The way the GCWR works can be the DRW has a 9900 rawr and 6000 fawr = a 15900 gvwr for registration purposes.

Now the big GN trailer with 10k dual tandem axle can be registered at 20000 lbs gvwr .

Now the vehicle owner has to declare a working gross combined weight rating which can be the sum of the trucks 15900 lbs and trailers 20000 lbs axle rating for a working 35900 lb GCW. But the truck cannot exceed its FAWR/RAWR nor the trailer axle weight ratings.

This is where dot uses the term GVWR / or a GCWR which creates so much confusion on RV websites.



Every vehicle on the road comes under axle/tire load rating motor vehicle codes.



My first commercial tow came in '1964 with a '58 3/4 ton GMC so yeah I was around when station wagons...full size sedans and panel trucks done most of the towing for work or play.

My trucks have always been used for both.... then and now.

Even in Pennsylvania, highway code 4942 (I think) stipulates that with a trailer under 10k, none of the GCVWR and such don't apply, only axle weights...

There is a 'Recreational Exemption' for non-commercial uses above 10k, butt (with 2 'T's) Manufacturer's GCVWR is used as an overall cap... (Unless axle weights are exceeded)

Again, this causes confusion, because somebody towing a big travel trailer gets nailed because they are using a 3/4 ton TV with a low GCVWR (for taxation purposes) goes off on these electric-internets about how you can and will get tickets for being overweight....

Meanwhile, my 1/2ton towing pretty much anything under 10k doesn't apply...

(Next topic; licensing of 'heavy' trailers!)

[CWSWine]

If you are concerned over safety and civil liabilities then these links are for you. If you only worried about DOT pulling you over and giving you an over weight ticket and safety isn’t a concern then these links are not for you.

Using axle rates are not longer used for max payload
https://www.ntea.com/NTEA/Member_ben...rk_trucks.aspx

What GMC (and others) state about towing over GVWR “Overloading your truck or SUV can carry severe consequences, including”
http://www.gmc.com/gmc-life/how-to/u...-weight-rating


The SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers) J2807 States the exceed in GVWR is reason to fail towing test. (Par 5.4)
http://fifthwheelst.com/documents/to...ds-2016-02.pdf

Can I change my GVWR
https://www.nhtsa.gov/interpretations/nht95-166

Understanding that door label
https://www.therangerstation.com/tec...deral-sticker/

Proper GVWR selection
https://www.forconstructionpros.com/...he-bottom-line

2021 Ford Towing Guides page 24 notes.
https://www.fleet.ford.com/content/d...owingGuide.pdf

Over 3500 Deaths being over GVWR in 2016
https://www.motorbiscuit.com/the-dan...weight-rating/
Ey

The legal side. if you have additional questions contact a Accident Attorney which after my meeting I purchased an umbrella policy to cover me.
https://www.personalinjuryclaimsblaw...ity-for-rvers/

If you see a new 2021 Ford 150 going down the road with blinking tail lights it could be that they are over their GVWR.
https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/202...r-payload.html


Check your user manual and towing guides for your truck and you will probably find something similar to the statement below.

“5th-Wheel Towing Notes:
This information also applies to models with pickup box delete option (66D). Trailer kingpin load weight should be 15% of total loaded trailer weight. Make sure that the vehicle payload (reduced by option weight) will accommodate trailer kingpin load weight and the weight of passengers and cargo added to the towing vehicle. The addition of trailer kingpin load weight, and the weight of passengers and cargo, must not cause vehicle weights to exceed the rear GAWR (Gross Axle Weight Rating) or GVWR (Gross Vehicle Weight Rating). These ratings can be found on the vehicle’s Safety Compliance Certification Label”


Here is the new door label on Chevy Trucks notice the words “Must Not Exceed” . “Must Not” is a legal term where the yellow sticker says “Should” which is not legal term.


Now you should have I idea of what GVWR means/dangers and information on which ratings you should follow when loading/towing with your truck. Now read the links from others that says the GVWR isn’t a rating and can be exceeded and make up your own mind.

[77Travco]

Originally Posted by CWSWine

Here is the new door label on Chevy Trucks notice the words “Must Not Exceed” . “Must Not” is a legal term where the yellow sticker says “Should” which is not legal term.

Now you should have I idea of what GVWR means/dangers and information on which ratings you should follow when loading/towing with your truck. Now read the links from others that says the GVWR isn’t a rating and can be exceeded and make up your own mind.

What if someone's truck doesn't have that label because they peeled it off and threw it away?
There's more than one way to go about these things and you of course are entitled to your opinions.

[CWSWine]

Originally Posted by 77Travco

What if someone's truck doesn't have that label because they peeled it off and threw it away?
There's more than one way to go about these things and you of course are entitled to your opinions.

A simple VIN check or the 4 place of your VIN has the class of truck. Say it its a 3/4 ton with 10,000 pound GVWR it will have a 2 in the position. In most states you GVWR is listed on your title.


I just provide links to few of several thousand links I found as examples. Now if you think they are not creditable then do your own search. Opinions are worthless unless you can back them up with fact. You may note the couple links are from the manufacture that designed and build trucks

[sirtate]

Originally Posted by CWSWine

A simple VIN check or the 4 place of your VIN has the class of truck. Say it its a 3/4 ton with 10,000 pound GVWR it will have a 2 in the position. In most states you GVWR is listed on your title.


I just provide links to few of several thousand links I found as examples. Now if you think they are not creditable then do your own search. Opinions are worthless unless you can back them up with fact. You may note the couple links are from the manufacture that designed and build trucks

What do you call 1,000 lawyers at the bottom of the ocean?

A good start...

Those disclaimers are written by the manufacturers lawyers because somebody got hurt and put blame on the manufacturer...

Just like the sticker on my lawn mower that tells me I can be seriously injured by placing my fingers or toes under the deck lid while the blades are in motion.... (Duh!)

That sticker is there because somebody did that, and sued the lawnmower people and won...

You will find if you go to the actual source of the laws you are speaking about, (see sec.#4942 of the Pa Highway Code) there are exemptions for RVs...

Also, litigation falls short when someone is operating anything in a 'Reasonable and Prudent Manner' (a legal term, look it up).
If you are operating a properly loaded vehicle like a Donkey, that isn't reasonable and prudent.

If you are outside of the legal weights for the vehicle you are operating, THAT isn't reasonable or prudent either...
However, if you can show that you were operating within the law, weight wise, and conducting the vehicle safely (ie; safe following distances, safe speeds, and everything that a reasonable person would do) you will likely not get sued.
If you are at fault in an accident you weren't being reasonable with your following distance or traffic lookout... And your chance of being sued increase...

If you are involved in and accident that you have no fault in, and are legally entitled to be there by your weights, condition of vehicles, and driver's licencing, you have nothing to worry about...

Most states (because I've only checked the ones near me) are like Pennsylvania and if your RV trailer is less than 10,000# (or so, some are higher) you are not limited legally by GCVWR, only axle weights...(and tire capacity if you burrow down enough)

Do I think 75mph is prudent towing a travel trailer, regardless of speed limits?

No, I do not, and I'm sure many lawyers would agree...

Do I think that a 9995# travel trailer needs a 3/4 ton truck to tow it? (Ever wonder why the trailer manufacturers have a soft cap of 10kips?)

Yes, probably...

But, if you're towing your 9995# trailer and your axle weights are within spec, you won't be in a position to fear an overweight ticket...

[CWSWine]

Originally Posted by sirtate

What do you call 1,000 lawyers at the bottom of the ocean?
.

Ok, you are one those that don't need to read the links because you already mind set. Maybe someone else will come up with a difference conclusion that just not prudent to tow above GVWR as state by the truck manufactures and others

[sirtate]

Originally Posted by CWSWine

Ok, you are one those that don't need to read the links because you already mind set. Maybe someone else will come up with a difference conclusion that just not prudent to tow above GVWR as state by the truck manufactures and others

You are providing opinions based on someone elses' opinion.

You also misunderstood what I was writing in my post.
I was agreeing with you about what is prudent. Not running overweight.

However, my critical thinking of the argument took me to the source of the question.

What is legal?

The law states very clearly what is legal and what is not.

If;

Your trailer grosses less than 10kips, GVWR and GCVWR are irrelevant in the eyes of the law.

You may not be safe, but you're legal...

Look up sec.4942...

https://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs...hoice=suppress