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07-17-2018, 01:02 PM
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#29
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Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 507
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I'm not going to get into an overblown discussion about RAWR but if you check the engineering specs, rather than the generic door tag, you'll find that the RAWR is based on ~80% of the OEM tire rating. These rigs are built where the tires are the weakest component because a tire fail is usually the best case scenario for a "wheel" failure.
All I can add is do the research. Oh and this. Do you think the engineers built a little safety factor in the components? How many Newton do you think are exerted on the axles when 7000+ pounds contact the road after a 2-3 ft drop.
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07-17-2018, 01:34 PM
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#30
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Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 1,020
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Strangely enough, 1.6*3750 is 6000 pounds which is pretty close to 6100 pounds [emoji57]
Don’t you reckon the engineers put those safety factors on there for a reason?
__________________
2018 ORV Timber Ridge 24rks
2017 F350 6.7 CC DRW
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07-17-2018, 06:21 PM
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#31
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Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 507
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But of course Frequz. That way, if you load the bed to the max of the RAWR, you won't have a catastrophic chassis failure if decide to top off your tank with 4 1/2 gals and let your 42 pound dog ride with you.
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07-17-2018, 09:28 PM
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#32
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Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 2,310
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BarryG20
Well you asked for real sticker numbers my 17 Ram, CC, 3500, 4x4, longbed, SRW, Bighorn edition (midlevel trim) with a couple other options on top of it has a payload sticker of 4365.
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I've preached before on the fallacy of using a gvwr based payload stickers for how much load we place in the trucks bed= payload on some of the new gen high GVWR trucks like the 3500 SRW Ram.
This truck is a classic example.
Run the math.
These new gen 3500 SRW trucks with a 7000 RAWR can weigh around 3300-3500 lbs on the rears. Now add that huge 4365 lb payload in the bed = 7865 lbs. Thats a awful big overload.
NHTSA says this about components of the GAWR:
**Gross Axle Weight Rating is the rated load-carrying capacity of an individual axle and wheel assembly. (It represents the load that may be steadily sustained by the components in the system; i.e., tires, rims, hubs, bearing, axles, brakes, suspension, sub framev(NOT THE MAIN FRAME), etc. with the GAWR limited by the components with the lowest working rating". **
Most weak link on RAWR todays trucks is the wheel capacity. Fleet Ford specs gives all the mechanical differences or same as on their trucks. Makes it handy to see where the strong or weak link is of all the components.
__________________
'03 Dodge 2500 Cummins HO 3.73 NV5600 Jacobs
'98 3500 DRW 454 4x4 4.10 crew cab
'97 Park Avanue RK 28' 2 slides
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07-17-2018, 10:38 PM
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#33
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Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 507
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JIMNLIN
Most weak link on RAWR todays trucks is the wheel capacity.
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Its not the 11.5 AAM axle found on GMCs and Rams, both 2500 and 3500 diesels where each axle, right and left are rated with a RAWR of 10,120 pounds each.
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07-18-2018, 07:06 AM
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#34
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Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: LA, Lower Alabama
Posts: 2,430
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The bottom line is we have the manufacturers ratings to live with. This thread has brought out a lot of conjecture, guessing, and enough facts to just confuse the issue. A vehicles XXWR, any rating, is a combination of all the parts that are tested together to provide satisfactory and safe operation. There might be a "safety factor" built in but we don't know what it is. I used to be an Army helicopter flight instructor and our manuals has a statement up from the "no specific safety factor is applied to any operating procedure or limitation". NOTE for the purists out there that may not be THE exact quote, it's been a few years but we get the point. Don't think you can exceed the GW by X% or a few hundred pounds and get away with it. I was also on a safety accident investigation board and my job as the instructor was to reconstruct the weight and balance computations, performance planning based on the conditions at the time of the accident, etc. The NTSB isn't down to doing that but you can bet your last beach house that an injured parties lawyers do and will.
For some it makes no difference anyway, they bought their F-150/250/1500/2500 and because the engine will pull it, they are good to go. Sag a little??, throw some air bags/helper springs on and charge on. Ignorance is bliss. Want to start an interesting conversation as your sitting around the ole campfire at an RV park, ask everyone what their truck really weighs. Try not to push it as some people get real defensive.
Me I'm going to operate within the limitations because it makes me comfortable not endangering my family or others on the road. YMMV.
For the record I am now the proud owner of a new 2017 Ram 3500 4WD, CC, LB Laramie. It will carry what I have and will get.
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07-18-2018, 07:09 PM
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#35
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Senior Member
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 282
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drwwicks
The NTSB isn't down to doing that but you can bet your last beach house that an injured parties lawyers do and will.
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Maybe in major trucking accidents when someone's tens of thousands overweight.
I work in the insurance business including injury handling claims for several years, and never once heard of an attorney trying to prove gross negligence against a private individual over being a few hundred pounds or even couple thousand for that matter overweight. They're using the phone in hand, reckless driving, or head up bottom claim for gross negligence.
Hasn't happened before? Possibly. But it's long from the "bet your last beach house" they do.
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07-19-2018, 11:37 PM
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#36
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Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 507
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I'd have a hard time counting the number of times I've seen post where someone was saying to estimate the pin weight at 20% of the loaded trailer weight and than give their scaled pin weight at a number that would put their trailer way over its GVWR using that 20% factor.
On another site, some guy was saying the pin of his G/D 337 was 3400 lbs. I know the GVWR of that unit is 14,000 and it has a 19% pin weight. Go figure.
I've always thought if its bad to overload the truck, its shownuff bad to overload the trailers with their minimized out components.
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07-20-2018, 12:11 PM
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#37
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Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: HillBilly country, Smokey Mtns
Posts: 4,171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fvstringpicker
I'd have a hard time counting the number of times I've seen post where someone was saying to estimate the pin weight at 20% of the loaded trailer weight and than give their scaled pin weight at a number that would put their trailer way over its GVWR using that 20% factor.
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Why the hard time? 20% pin weight is the average for a 5er RV trailer loaded for a camping trip. But wet and loaded pin weight varies from about 18% to 25% for an RV 5er.
When attempting to match an RV trailer to a tow vehicle without overloading the tow vehicle, using only the specs and not actual wet and loaded weights, it's reasonable to use the average pin weight percentage for your guesstimate/estimates. If you absolutely cannot be overloaded, then you would use the max percentage instead of the average percentage.
Quote:
On another site, some guy was saying the pin of his G/D 337 was 3400 lbs. I know the GVWR of that unit is 14,000 and it has a 19% pin weight.
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No, you don't know that the wet and loaded pin weight is 19% of the weight of the loaded trailer. That 19% is probably the dry pin weight. If you load the trailer to the GVWR, then the pin weight could be anywhere up to 3,500 pounds and still be "normal". With 3,400 pounds pin weight and 14,000 pounds gross trailer weight, that's about 24.3% pin weight, which is on the high end of normal.
Complications: 5er specs don't usually include GVWR. The CAT scale will not give you a number for trailer GVW. Instead you have trailer axle weight, which should not exceed the combined GAWR of the trailer axles.
When on the road with a loaded 5er, you don't worry about exceeding the trailer's GVWR. Instead you should be concerned with the weight on the trailer axles compared to the combined GAWR of the trailer axles, and the weight on the tow vehicle axles compared to the GVWR of the tow vehicle.
__________________
Grumpy ole man with over 60 years towing experience. Now my heaviest trailer is a 7'x16' 5,000-pound flatbed utility trailer, my tow vehicle is a 2019 F-150 Lariat 3.5L EcoBoost SuperCab with Max Tow (1,904 pounds payload capacity).
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07-20-2018, 03:55 PM
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#38
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Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 507
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeyWren
When on the road with a loaded 5er, you don't worry about exceeding the trailer's GVWR. Instead you should be concerned with the weight on the trailer axles compared to the combined GAWR of the trailer axles, and the weight on the tow vehicle axles compared to the GVWR of the tow vehicle.
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So what you're saying is the GVWR stated on the trailers tag is relatively unimportant when compared the the tow vehicles stated GVWR.
In these discussions I noticed the focus is typically on the "payload" rating of the tow vehicle; hence comments like, "you'll reach you payload capacity before you'll reach your tow capacity", and "just because you're within the GCWR don't mean your vehicle is capable of handling the pin weight". My favorite related to pin weight (because it will usually come up when discussing pin weight) is, "your TV may tow it but can it stop it. "
I've always thought that if you can stop a trailer with a pin that's within the payload limits of your truck, you can stop a trailer that weighs the same, that's puts you over on the pin weight. In other words, its the trailer weight, speed, friction or lack thereof, that pushes you through the intersection and not the pin weight that over a couple or three hundred pounds. If I say pin weight has little to do with stopping ability, with the same weight behind you, where am I wrong? (other than the ration between pin and trailer weight).
BTW, if you think a plaintiff's attorney likes an overloaded TV, due to payload, how much do you think they'd love an overloaded trailer.
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07-20-2018, 11:03 PM
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#39
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Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: HillBilly country, Smokey Mtns
Posts: 4,171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fvstringpicker
So what you're saying is the GVWR stated on the trailers tag is relatively unimportant when compared the the tow vehicles stated GVWR.
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Yes. The trailer's GAWRs are important, but the GVWR is relatively unimportant.
With the typical one pass over the scale, the CAT scale is not going to give you (or a LEO) the GVW of the trailer to compare to the GVWR of the trailer. The only way to get the GVW of the trailer is to disconnect the trailer and weigh just the trailer on the scale. Or multiple passes over the scale to determine pin weight , then add pin weight to trailer axle weight to get trailer GVW.
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07-20-2018, 11:46 PM
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#40
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Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 507
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Seems like if you knew the weight of your truck you could simple subtract that from the weight of the package. That's what I did but I was on a scale at the city inert land fill that charges by the pound. I figured if a + b = c then c - a = b.
You got me wondering now if GAWR of the trailer is the critical factor and GVWR is relatively unimportant for the trailer, why wouldn't the same hold true for the tow vehicle, thus making the GAWR, rather than the payload rating, the number not to be exceeded.
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07-21-2018, 10:28 AM
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#41
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Moderator Emeritus
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: HillBilly country, Smokey Mtns
Posts: 4,171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fvstringpicker
You got me wondering now if GAWR of the trailer is the critical factor and GVWR is relatively unimportant for the trailer, why wouldn't the same hold true for the tow vehicle, thus making the GAWR, rather than the payload rating, the number not to be exceeded.
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On a tow vehicle, you shouldn't exceed any of the weight ratings. GVWR, GAWR, GCWR or receiver hitch weight limits. On a pickup with a normal load of people and their stuff and trailer hitch weight, GVWR is usually the first limiter you will encounter. So that's why most of the old heads around here emphasize the GVWR. But some of the newer F-150s can exceed the rGAWR without exceeding the GVWR. Inadequate design by the folks that developed the aluminum body F-150? So now on the '15-up F-150, you have to consider both the GVWR and the rGAWR to be sure you're not overloaded. But all the weights required to be sure your tow vehicle is not overloaded are available on a CAT scale weight report. Not true for a trailer with only one pass over the scale.
So with one pass over the CAT scale, add the weights on the front and rear axle and compare the total to the GVWR of the tow vehicle. Compare the weight on the rear axle to the rGAWR of the tow vehicle. Compare the weight on the trailer axles to the combined GAWR of the trailer.
If you don't exceed either the GVWR or rGAWR of the tow vehicle or the combined GAWR of the trailer, and assuming your WD hitch is properly adjusted with the floor of the trailer being level front to rear, you're probably good to go.
No where in any of the above do you see a need for the GVWR of the trailer. So it's relatively unimportant.
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