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drittal · 01-14-2017, 07:11 AM

I completely missed the part about gutting a camper trailer to load a 5,000lb mud truck...

Youll be sorry.

A standard camper frame is flimsy compared to the equivalent auto trailer. It is in no way able to handle those weights without practically re doing the entire frame. Even my WnP is rated for 5,000 CCC has heavier frame front to back and still has more plus heavier cross members in the cargo area to handle the stresses involved.

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KSagal · 01-14-2017, 10:26 AM

I love the mix and match components and explanations here...

On one hand, a statement is made that it is not understood how a weight distributing hitch works, and why and how it distributes weight, and at the same time the statement is made about re-engineering heavy vehicles by adding turning axles and extra axles because of weight issues.

One cannot miss the simple concepts of weight distributing hitches, and expect people to believe the same person can understand how to redesign the load and balance of an over the road heavy truck and trailer combination.

Then examples of tongue weights are offered because one observed the squat of a particular truck with a trailer on it, and a different amount of squat on a different truck with a different load.

I do observe when a truck squats from weight but do not use that as the final decision as to if a truck is overloaded or not. It is an observable fact that makes rational people do more research, and maybe even get things weighed, than tell us on the internet that it justified conclusions jumped to.

Then, add to that, a picture and several posts describing a truck that squats all by itself, because of a beefed up the front and not rear axles. Even if we forget all the incredible things said about that suburban (incredible by definition that I am using here, is that it has no credibility) it was squatting with no tongue weight. So, if a truck squats with no tongue weight, how can anyone then determine the tongue weight of someone else's truck with a trailer on it? How could anyone know if that truck was modified as the suburban was, or in different ways? Were the tires at the proper inflation? How about any air bags or air assisted suspension? So many things can make a truck squat besides tongue weight, as was said in some posts, then ignored in other posts.

I applaud the application of street knowledge to projects. It makes sense to use actual experience when making decisions, and I do it all the time. But that does not mean that people who design vehicles and trailers have nothing to offer, and that all things are simple, or that if I decide a particular thing with my limited knowledge and limited experience, I am better at this than the people who make a living at it. Those engineers who design these things are smarter than I, and I make a mod that I like, or suits my needs, but that does not make it superior, or even legally safe.

I said long ago, there are many things in this thread that scare me very much. There is information on this thread that is quite detrimental to a person who does some of the things mentioned here, WHEN they have to defend themselves from the accidents they will cause. I am not an attorney, but if I were one who was representing someone hurt by a person posting here, I could use it to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that some posters here have willful disregard for the safety of others. I do not share that disregard, and therefore say again, please rethink some of the suggestions made here, and do more research, and actually use appropriate vehicles and tools designed for the job, and be wary of substituting your own opinion for the facts proven in solid engineering and testing.

Personal convenience, cost savings, and individual choices do not justify putting others at risk. Do the work yourself and save some money are things I do all the time. But that is not justification to disregard safety protocols... Doing it yourself is not the same as disregarding standard safety considerations. If it is not legal to do what you are doing, it is not legal to do it. Unlike some statements in this thread, I do not know of any back yard mechanic who is above or beyond the current laws.

MudiGGer25 · 01-14-2017, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drittal

I completely missed the part about gutting a camper trailer to load a 5,000lb mud truck...

Youll be sorry.

A standard camper frame is flimsy compared to the equivalent auto trailer. It is in no way able to handle those weights without practically re doing the entire frame. Even my WnP is rated for 5,000 CCC has heavier frame front to back and still has more plus heavier cross members in the cargo area to handle the stresses involved.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Here we go again with the "standard" camper assumptions.

well HERE i got the guy to run out in the -20F temps yesterday and get a couple pictures before his phone shut off due to the cold, and i attached them to this post, the "camper" we are talking about in this thread is the big mother trucker of a house looking one, and the 4th picture is our last one almost this big which was a 32ft 1992 salem by cobra or something along those lines, it was engraved on the frame that it was rated for 7,500lb gross trailer weight, and the axles were 6 bolt (practically new when we it was vandalized :( )

if you take a look the frame of the park model i-beams are substantially bigger than the ones of the 1992 TT, its buried in snow but im heading up to get full measurements of the frame, axles, hitch, and lots lots more pics.

The inside measurements are 7'7ft wide, 7'8" high floor to ceiling, and i think 29-31ft inside space front to rear. the slide/tip outs are 6'8" tall

Since i can only upload 4 pictures at a time for some reason, my next reply will show a "standard camper frame" that my friend stripped down and has been using for 10+ years to haul scrap iron, i also hauled a few cars weighing 3500-4500lbs on it myself for hundreds of miles, never ever had an issue except the tires were too wide and P-rated, but the trailer and axles never failed us, no broken welds, no broken springs, no burned brearings etc. and he has had loads of 6k+ multiple times that i have watched him go across the scale, the axles were rated 3000 IIRC on the tags when he was under there, so i know he "overloaded" it at times probably by 1000-1500lbs, i dont know what the manf' safety margin was. but my point being that i think most of you think i am talking about a camper like shown in the next 4 pictures, and dont realize how big and beefy the trailer is we are actually talking about.

MudiGGer25 · 01-14-2017, 10:49 AM

this is what i call a "standard camper frame trailer" 2 axles rated at around 3,000lbs, a 14-24ft length (this one is 16ft) and a 2" or 2 5/16" coupler (this one is a 2") i would never try to load a full size truck on this unless it was an absolute emergency and i was only taking back roads under 35mph. i know he has had it loaded much heavier but i wouldnt want to try it on something this small, because my truck is 19ft long front to back so it would barely fit on this one.

MudiGGer25 · 01-14-2017, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KSagal

I love the mix and match components and explanations here...

the mix and match components were a result of no money left in my account 3 weeks until another payday, and the potential loss of $20,000 invested into a motorhome that i purchased, and was over 250 miles away, the place it was located said i have 2 weeks to get it out AND they are charging me $30/day to have it on the lot ( it was a repair shop just off the interstate in SD), so it was a choice of borrowing some money, rent a trailer and use what was available to prevent losing a rather large investment. I have already stated that i have no true idea if the suburban was safe or not short of putting it on a test track and testing it like manufacturers do with thier vehicles.

On one hand, a statement is made that it is not understood how a weight distributing hitch works, and why and how it distributes weight, and at the same time the statement is made about re-engineering heavy vehicles by adding turning axles and extra axles because of weight issues.

Adding a 3rd or 4th axle to a OTR heavy vehicle not the same as using bars and levers to redistrbute weight, because by adding the additional axle it it now carrying its portion of the weight and the other axles are less loads WITHOUT using any kind of lever mechanism

One cannot miss the simple concepts of weight distributing hitches, and expect people to believe the same person can understand how to redesign the load and balance of an over the road heavy truck and trailer combination.

I never claimed to understand how to redesign anything, i said i worked there and installed said components, i left all the mathematics and such to the boss who had a degree in engineering, he gave us the plans or blueprints of where to begin, and we did the installation, i was just illustrating what i have witnessed, and taken part in.

Then examples of tongue weights are offered because one observed the squat of a particular truck with a trailer on it, and a different amount of squat on a different truck with a different load.

I w

I do observe when a truck squats from weight but do not use that as the final decision as to if a truck is overloaded or not. It is an observable fact that makes rational people do more research, and maybe even get things weighed, than tell us on the internet that it justified conclusions jumped to.

If my truck is squatting excessively i usually stop by the junkyard or grain elevator and get some weights, as the nearest CAT scale is over 60 miles north of here, and the grain scales are accurate usually within 20-40lbs, i never once said i wasnt going to weigh it, and i was fairly certain that this post asking for information from individuals more knowledgeable than myself counted as research, im sorry my professors and teachers have all touch me not to blindly accept something even if multiple people say its true, history has proven over and over that just because a majority believes it, does not make it the truth, if something doesnt quite add up, i ask questions, i provide any evidence or facts i can come up with.

Then, add to that, a picture and several posts describing a truck that squats all by itself, because of a beefed up the front and not rear axles. Even if we forget all the incredible things said about that suburban (incredible by definition that I am using here, is that it has no credibility) it was squatting with no tongue weight. So, if a truck squats with no tongue weight, how can anyone then determine the tongue weight of someone else's truck with a trailer on it? How could anyone know if that truck was modified as the suburban was, or in different ways? Were the tires at the proper inflation? How about any air bags or air assisted suspension? So many things can make a truck squat besides tongue weight, as was said in some posts, then ignored in other posts.

since you dont seem to believe me, I attached 3 pictures i dug up of my truck with 0 weight in the back right after we made this trip, i dont know if the technical definition would be "squatting" since the springs are not being compressed, but rather a lean at a negative angle maybe? also a picture of how high i needed to lift it while i corrected the rear height issue

I applaud the application of street knowledge to projects. It makes sense to use actual experience when making decisions, and I do it all the time. But that does not mean that people who design vehicles and trailers have nothing to offer, and that all things are simple, or that if I decide a particular thing with my limited knowledge and limited experience, I am better at this than the people who make a living at it. Those engineers who design these things are smarter than I, and I make a mod that I like, or suits my needs, but that does not make it superior, or even legally safe.

so how do i make it "legally safe"??? is there a process to take my vehicle in for testing so that it would be deemed "legal" and a new set of stickers for the gross weight ratings?

I said long ago, there are many things in this thread that scare me very much. There is information on this thread that is quite detrimental to a person who does some of the things mentioned here, WHEN they have to defend themselves from the accidents they will cause. I am not an attorney, but if I were one who was representing someone hurt by a person posting here, I could use it to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that some posters here have willful disregard for the safety of others. I do not share that disregard, and therefore say again, please rethink some of the suggestions made here, and do more research, and actually use appropriate vehicles and tools designed for the job, and be wary of substituting your own opinion for the facts proven in solid engineering and testing.

tell me in this regard what is different between me upgrading my vehicles and trailers to suit my needs, VS a team building a rally car or dirt track car while still in high school and racing around at excessive speeds? what if something goes wrong? are they showing a disregard for others or did they take every possible precaution? Around here we dont sign waivers when we go to the dirt track, i dont know about where your from, but the only insurance im aware of is the race club organizing the events, i could be wrong though

Personal convenience, cost savings, and individual choices do not justify putting others at risk. Do the work yourself and save some money are things I do all the time. But that is not justification to disregard safety protocols... Doing it yourself is not the same as disregarding standard safety considerations. If it is not legal to do what you are doing, it is not legal to do it. Unlike some statements in this thread, I do not know of any back yard mechanic who is above or beyond the current laws.

Btw here is a tidbit for you to look into, the us supreme court ruled that travelling with a personal automobile not for hire is a right and not a privilege and thereby cannot be restricted unless interfering with the public safety or the rights of others, and here are some links to documents about that, and even a legal briefing that has been used successfully in a few states to dismiss charges of driving without a license, so who is really doing things illegally?the people or the states?

U.S. Supreme Court says No License Necessary To Drive Automobile On Public Highways/Streets | We Are Change

Right to Drive

Driver Licensing vs. Right to Travel - TLP

i see this just like the 2nd amendment, its technically our right but they are requiring background checks and registration before allowing us to exercise our right to keep and bear arms.. but thats a topic for another day

I am researching, i have even provided what i have found regarding the weight of the trailer manf' which had one model of this trailer rated around 5500 dry weight and another model of the same trailer rated at over 8000lbs dry weight. im sure mine is the 5500lb model because it only has 2 axles, but im trying to find out if it has the same frame as the 8000+ model, and if so then i only need to change/add axle(s) and weld on the proper coupler and find a way to have it legally tested.

MudiGGer25 · 01-14-2017, 11:49 AM

here are some more pictures as evidence of the donor truck i pulled from, and the suburban when it was still a stock 1/2 ton with 1/2 ton axles and springs, towing a small trailer that weighed about 4500 across the scales, i couldnt get the tongue weight that day but if i had to guess it was over 500lbs because i could not lift it with a coworker helping me when the jack decided to not work.

The 1/2 ton springs were getting weak from a long life as a rural FD rig, and they installed air shocks to help keep it level, but i had installed a set of O/L springs to help instead and one of them accidentally ripped the air bag on the air shock, so that was the end of that. but that trailer was very nose heavy

MudiGGer25 · 01-14-2017, 12:09 PM

here is another one just for the hell of it, this is a HOMEMADE bobcat trailer that one of my previous employers use on a daily basis for his landscaping business, and hauls it using a W250 dodge power ram.

This thing is well over 20 years old, and huals loads over 10K of fertilizer, dirt, bobcat & accesories, etc and has 6 lug axles, i think he said they were rated at 6K each so we tried to stay under 10K for a load to account for how heavy the trailer might be, he hauls this all over town from march till november, and even does snow removal in the winter with it too, but is he showing disregard for human life? i dont see how anyone would be able to determine what the trailer is actually "safely" rated for without testing it when new, and something that has seen better days may not be quite as capable as the day it was made. but this trailer can make a 200 mile haul with equipment on it and never breaks a sweat.

Do you see where im going with this? many many trailers are on the roads this very moment that dont break down, that dont kill innocent people, and do what the person is asking of them, and most of those did thier research and built or had someone else build one that fits thier requirements, now there is a small % that gets by on sheer luck of the draw but im not trying to be that small %, im researching, im looking at reinforcing the entire length of the frame if necessary, and installing what suspension components are needed to safely be within range, and yet people are still accusing me of disregarding safety of others, i dont see how thats even possible. Would you feel better if went out and got my welding and ASE certification and glued it to the door of my truck so you know that i went to school for it?

There are literally thousands upon thousands of people that dont know what they are even attempting to do and go out and try without any knowledge or research and just say "F%^$ it" and endager lives, thats not me, and if you haven't figured it out yet, im rather offended that people still think im showing disregard for safety or life

I will also reiterate that i am buying a 1ton truck that has a weight CARRYING capacity of 1,600-2,400 lbs tongue weight and 16,000 trailer weight, so the suburban is entirely out of the equation here. no WD hitch needed, but i would probably get a sway control setup.

KSagal · 01-14-2017, 03:49 PM

I don't think I am going to convince you of anything here. I have looked at your arguments and pictures, and feel less comfortable as we go.

Parts from junk yards are frequently there for a reason. Maybe the truck engine blew up, and the axles are fine, maybe the truck frame broke because it was abused by the previous owner, I do not know, and neither do you.

Rusty parts are not as strong as new ones.

Investing $20,000.00 in a trailer you cannot legally take possession of is not a reason to put other people on the road in danger.

Experimenting on a race track is not at all the same as experimenting on a public road. Regardless of waivers or not, everyone at that race track is there with other people, and they know that public street rules do not apply. People on public streets do not know that you have modified and heavily overloaded your vehicle, and have not chosen to go to a closed loop and risk their lives.

One of the reason that people do not bring their children into race tracks and into high speed races on tracks is because they know the danger level is higher. People with children in the next lane, or worse, in the same lane further down the hill from you and your over sized load, did not get to choose to drive with you or not, as they would on a track.

Pointing to other bad behavior does not justify your bad behavior.

If you overload a vehicle, but take 100 trips of 100 miles, and do not destroy anything or kill anyone, but take that same rig on the 101st trip, and kill a young couple on their way to a picnic, does that mean you did not do anything wrong on the first 100 trips? Or were you just lucky, as I believe?

Some people do dangerous and inappropriate things for years and do not have bad results. Other people do less dangerous and less inappropriate things, and get in accidents. The possibilities are endless.

Does this mean you should be allowed on the road with me and more importantly, my children? I do not think so.

Yes, there are places to test your modified trucks. Those places may not be convenient, and the testing will be expensive. That does not mean they do not exist.

I have not looked at your references that you linked to. I will, but I am just responding to the things you have said. I do not know that you overload your vehicles by any other means than that you told me you do. I am just holding you to the things you have said you do.

I wish you luck. I believe you will need it. I wish you a wide berth. I hope you have empty roads to drive on, and no people around to impede your progress. I believe we all need that.

MudiGGer25 · 01-14-2017, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KSagal

I don't think I am going to convince you of anything here. I have looked at your arguments and pictures, and feel less comfortable as we go.

Parts from junk yards are frequently there for a reason. Maybe the truck engine blew up, and the axles are fine, maybe the truck frame broke because it was abused by the previous owner, I do not know, and neither do you.

Rusty parts are not as strong as new ones.

Investing $20,000.00 in a trailer you cannot legally take possession of is not a reason to put other people on the road in danger.

Experimenting on a race track is not at all the same as experimenting on a public road. Regardless of waivers or not, everyone at that race track is there with other people, and they know that public street rules do not apply. People on public streets do not know that you have modified and heavily overloaded your vehicle, and have not chosen to go to a closed loop and risk their lives.

One of the reason that people do not bring their children into race tracks and into high speed races on tracks is because they know the danger level is higher. People with children in the next lane, or worse, in the same lane further down the hill from you and your over sized load, did not get to choose to drive with you or not, as they would on a track.

Pointing to other bad behavior does not justify your bad behavior.

If you overload a vehicle, but take 100 trips of 100 miles, and do not destroy anything or kill anyone, but take that same rig on the 101st trip, and kill a young couple on their way to a picnic, does that mean you did not do anything wrong on the first 100 trips? Or were you just lucky, as I believe?

Some people do dangerous and inappropriate things for years and do not have bad results. Other people do less dangerous and less inappropriate things, and get in accidents. The possibilities are endless.

Does this mean you should be allowed on the road with me and more importantly, my children? I do not think so.

Yes, there are places to test your modified trucks. Those places may not be convenient, and the testing will be expensive. That does not mean they do not exist.

I have not looked at your references that you linked to. I will, but I am just responding to the things you have said. I do not know that you overload your vehicles by any other means than that you told me you do. I am just holding you to the things you have said you do.

I wish you luck. I believe you will need it. I wish you a wide berth. I hope you have empty roads to drive on, and no people around to impede your progress. I believe we all need that.

I see where your coming from, so let me ask you this, which would make you more comfortable assuming we never had this conversation and you have no way to know what i do or do not have loaded inside?

A. seeing a park model trailer such as ours driving down the road with 3 axles and a toyhauler door installed on the back

or

B that same park model trailer but instead of sitting on its original axles, they have been removed and its entire frame and chassis is now sitting on a gooseneck/5th wheel or other manufactured tandem axle trailer rated for 14K?

(I only mention gooseneck/5th wheel because the pin weight over the axle inherently makes them a little more stable.)

I have been considering is getting a used trailer that is atleast 34-40ft long rated for 12K-14K and transplant this trailer onto the new frame and axles, and weld it together, as well as several 1" diameter bolts just for redundancy. but the only issue with this is it adds $1000-$3000 to the initial cost, which i dont have right now, but our honeymoon is the first week of april.

But yet no one so far including myself can tell if the frame is rated for the load since it has the larger I-beams usually seen on the front of trailer houses.

I was also talking to the local shops/warehouses that literally build trailers from the wheels up, and asking if i could have them determine what the frame can safely handle based on THEIR knowledge of material strength and if its not strong enough as-is, then ask them what they could do to beef it up to match the other trailers they make.

My final decision has not been made, but not one person (including myself) has been able to prove that the frame can or can not handle the load, every comment is just saying it cannot without proof of the strength of the materials used, and design, i have never had a travel trailer with frame rails quite this large, so im not confident either. I just know that most smaller campers have much much much smaller frames and usually c channel not Ibeams, but i will have specific measurements next weekend and can ask the builders and get thier opinions

KSagal · 01-14-2017, 05:16 PM

I do not know enough to be able to decide which modification would be more safe.

As a general rule, I would err toward the side of bigger and stronger is better, in that if the original use was heavier duty, and you are asking less of it, that is better than if the original use was lighter, and you were trying to beef it up and ask it to do more.

But I know that I cannot answer the question you asked. I also know that you do not care what others think, especially on the internet, and will do what you want.

I have not agreed with many if any of your conclusions, but from what you have said, have to guess that you are a fairly honest guy, even if very dangerous by my standards. I hope you do not hurt yourself, and more so, I hope you do not hurt anyone else.

Just for a moment, consider this... How would you feel if someone you cared about were hurt by a person who substituted his own values for those of the state or manufacturer, and made or used a vehicle he knew did not comply with how it was made, and used it anyway. And that person hurt someone you cared about.

I do not believe that you would care for his excuse that caused harm to your family, saying that he saved a few bucks by taking that shortcut.

It has been my experience that I cannot do all that I want to do, because I cannot afford it. I can take short cuts and do some things unsafely, but choose not to do them if the risk outweighs the value. And I value being safe on the road very highly. I could afford to do many more things if I did not care how my actions might impact or hurt others.

Good luck.

drittal · 01-14-2017, 06:14 PM

If you don't know, the best solution is to take it to an expert who would know. None of us here can give you an answer without actually seeing it. Pictures and measurements would help, but still isn't a replacement for hands on with a pro. My money is you will have quite a bit tied up into bracing the perimeter, cross members and flooring.

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garbonz · 01-14-2017, 07:31 PM

Oh heck I will chime in. It is all about weight distribution both for the tow vehicle, the trailer and the hitch. There is a 1950's SAE paper (Society of Automotive Engineers) by Reese that says it all. If you were to get a trailer with all the weight centered over the axle(s) you would have 0 tongue weight and yet total stability. Ironically, the WDH should only be used to reduce sway to an acceptable level because to much increases instability and increases the possibility for jackknifing.

While there are guidelines like 10% and such, the reality is that it is about stability, not weight.

So if you do move more weight toward the center of a trailer from the ends, you reduce the need for weight distribution. I towed a large sailboat with a heavy keel on a triple axle and it was totally stable regardless of the tongue weight, and a smaller RV trailer that need every bit of 10-15% of tongue weight and a WDH to manage. A truck with dually's makes a very stable platform and reduces the need for a WDH.

Frankly, a 5th wheel is the only way to go.

Simple physics.

MudiGGer25 · 01-22-2017, 06:00 PM

Ok, just wanted to jump in here and try to wrap up this thread

and here are some better pics of the "camper" and some measurements:

37ft long from rear bumper to the edge of the tongue

9' 8" tall outside

7'11" wide outside

7' exactly inside main areas

6' exactly inside the 2 tip outs

Axles are exactly 12.75' and 15.5' from the rear edge

ceiling was made with 1x3's but not sure about spacing but ateast 2 spots i can see there are 3 of them nailed together to form a single 3x3 going across the roof.

Axles are UTG and are 3" thick and have 4 leaf springs per side, 14.5" tires
(MH axles only used 1 leaf from what i have read)

the tongue "extends" 50" from the front edge of the trailer, and "extends" about 30" under the edge of the trailer.

The tongue uses steel I-beams 8" tall 2.25" wide at the ends and about 1/4" thickness ( I didnt have a caliper with me)

The frame is 2- 8" x 2.5" I-beams spaced out about 60" apart and a solid run front to rear as far as I could tell, no joins or extensions.

The part i intend to clear out is the rear bedroom and relocate or adjust the size of the bathroom. I do not want to mess with the wall that begins the kitchen so thats all the room i get, That will give me a room that is 7ft high, ~7'8" wide and 15' long.

I have decided that trying to fit the suburban inside will be too much of a task, and we have decide to get an S10 or S10 blazer and swap our offroad engine in, and use that for a while instead. the full weight of an S10/blazer is 2900-3200lbs depending on which model/year.

It appears i will need to weld in a few more "arms" and cross beams under the rear part of the trailer for the weight.

The tipouts weigh about 1500lbs and they will be removed and set in storage until I have time to work on them and I will replace the openings with a basic 2x2 wall and pink extruded polystyrene for insulation. nothing fancy, and that will put about 200lbs back onto the frame.

Cabinets, and the walls being removed will probably only add up to 500lbs so i will be removing a total of about 2,000lbs and putting 3,000 back in, but i will have to determine if the axles need to be relocated back more, or if my tongue will still be 10-15% once loaded. the frame rails are almost perfect so the weight of the truck will be directly over the main rails and not on the "wings"

For support for the rear walls/ceiling and door i will be installing either 4x4" or 6x6" posts in both corners floor to ceiling and one across the top of the opening just like a real door frame on a barn or garage.

I hope between the pictures and the exact measurements that most of you realized that this is NOT anything like a standard camper frame. i have never had a bumper camper that had i-beams taller than 6"

I do think that my weak link might be the coupler that exists currently and might be having a shop weld on a 10K hitch that is welded to more of the arms.

based off the axle thickness these are either 5,200lb or 6,000lb axles

It should also be noted that it has been raining/ heavy fog, and melting snow for the past 3 days and there was no sign of any leaks anywhere in the camper, just where the tipouts where pushed inside too far the elements were getting inside, and all the floors were solid with my 250lb body walking around

Also i just rembered there was a sticker outside and inside on the breaker panel stating it was designed for 4 wire 240V/120V service and there are a couple 240V outlets outside as well as the 120V standard ones. Also it has no tanks right now, its all regular hookups.