What's your take with the whole EV push?

[Marine359]

Sorry I forgot about CAFE @MADP4301,
You are completely correct. The government does mandate/regulate fuel economy and emissions. I shudder to think where we might be without CAFE, EPA, and California Air Resources Board, which has been the driving factor behind change. Today, I believe it’s mostly being driven by market forces. China is not restrained by any of what the US faces, but next year China will be the largest global manufacturer of EVs and it’s known that China will prohibit sale of ICE vehicles in 2030. The scary thing is that China is prepared to begin exporting their cheaper EVs into the US this year if trade barriers are lifted. Scary because if we do nothing, we lose ANOTHER important industry to China.

[rarebear.nm]

I get tired of posts suggesting that EVs are/will brink down the US power grid or make it glow.


In the US EV recharging uses about 1% of the total power output. 80-90% of EV owners recharge at home (night) or at work (frequently solar around here). Heating and cooling uses about 40-50% of the US total power production. In many cases the night time recharging of EVs helps to keep the power grid at a more even demand level. Just as grid operators like. But please explain how the 1% for EVs breaks the power grid when 40-50% goes to heating and cooling does not?


In my old math a small reduction in heating and cooling would easily offset EV recharging for years to come. I know one person in Fort Worth who keeps their home so cold in the summer they have to wear jackets inside.


Transmission lines lose about 25% of total power production as waste heat in the wires. There are new types of transmission cables that significantly reduces these losses without having to build entirely new infrastructure. Some of these cable types are best for high voltage overhead lines while others are suitable to the distribution up to the electric meter on a structure.



There are multiple ways electrical use can be improved and adjusted some so as to offset the additional load of EVs. I also understand that some folks are in love with fossil fuels and just don't want to see a change. But change is happening. The US can either get in to the game or watch as China passes us by, just like they acquired about 94% of the world's rare earth element production.


China is playing a long term strategic game while the US is caught up with not in my life time or not in my backyard ideas.

[jharrell]

Originally Posted by rarebear.nm

Transmission lines lose about 25% of total power production as waste heat in the wires.

Where are you getting 25%? Everything I have seen is around 5-10%, EV use high voltage 400+v usually from 480v AC so should be on the low end losses:

https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=105&t=3

[radar]

Originally Posted by Ludo

Sure, for me hydrogen ist "worst case", just as stupid as LNG.


IMHO methanol, ethanol or e-fuels are the best solution, but politicians will decide

No. The consumer will. And most who experience the horsepower and instant torque of an EV coupled with quiet power, low maintenance and easy home fueling will choose an EV over an ICE regardless of wether it’s powered with e-fuel or gas. It’s not even close.

Jmho.

[rarebear.nm]

Originally Posted by jharrell

Where are you getting 25%? Everything I have seen is around 5-10%, EV use high voltage 400+v usually from 480v AC so should be on the low end losses:

https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=105&t=3

Thanks for catch on that. I just rechecked and see numbers from 8 to 15% for transmission losses. Point remains the same. Total power used by EVs is not very significant percentage of the total (about 1%) and other losses and uses greatly exceed usage by EVs. Thus these claims that EV recharging will bring down the power grid does not add up. A very small change in building temperature will offset the EV usage for sometime to come.

[RossWilliams]

Originally Posted by jharrell

Batteries are not a form of energy they are an energy storage device like a fuel tank.

A battery allows us to use any source of energy we want (oil, nat gas, coal, nuclear, solar, wind, garbage, etc.) rather than being tied to refining oil into gas or diesel for our vehicles.1

If you skip the refining step and burn crude oil directly in a power plant you skip the 15% losses in refining and then can burn it at 50% efficiency in a combined cycle steam turbine far surpassing any diesel engine in efficiency. This far exceeds any grid losses as well.

Lithium batteries were invented in the 1970's and have been steadily improving since then, there is a lot of improvement still to be had. Current lithium batteries are around 250 wh/kg but we know Lithium-Sulfur chemistry has a peak of 2500 wh/kg. At around 1000 wh/kg just about everything makes sense even airplanes and there is no reason to think we won't achieve that in the next few decades based on existing progress.

Hydrogen or synthetic fuels to be used a combustion engine make no sense, there are huge efficiency losses using solar to make those fuels vs just charging a battery. Hydrogen is extremely hard to contain and requires significant energy to compress to 10,000 psi to get decent energy density out of it.

I am pretty confident all automobiles will be electric in the future, it just a matter of when.

I am not aware of any place that is burning pure crude for electricity. Most current EVs are powered by fossil fuel generated electricity since there is no available emission free power that is not already in use. That will change as the grid becomes emission free, but ev adoption will delay that by increasing demand for electricity.



If you want immediate effect, we need to increase the efficiency of the ICE fleet. A hybrid EV is possible now and the battery could do double duty boondocking and charged with solar panels. Make it a plugin that can be charged off a normal 15 amp household circuit

[radar]

Originally Posted by RossWilliams

I am not aware of any place that is burning pure crude for electricity. Most current EVs are powered by fossil fuel generated electricity since there is no available emission free power that is not already in use. That will change as the grid becomes emission free, but ev adoption will delay that by increasing demand for electricity.



If you want immediate effect, we need to increase the efficiency of the ICE fleet. A hybrid EV is possible now and the battery could do double duty boondocking and charged with solar panels. Make it a plugin that can be charged off a normal 15 amp household circuit

Depends on the country. Many countries produce much of their power from renewables.

[Ludo]

Originally Posted by radar

No. The consumer will. And most who experience the horsepower and instant torque of an EV coupled with quiet power, low maintenance and easy home fueling will choose an EV over an ICE regardless of wether it’s powered with e-fuel or gas. It’s not even close.

Jmho.

Most who experience the sound of a Ford V10 or a Cummins diesel will choose the ICE

[jharrell]

Originally Posted by RossWilliams

I am not aware of any place that is burning pure crude for electricity. Most current EVs are powered by fossil fuel generated electricity since there is no available emission free power that is not already in use. That will change as the grid becomes emission free, but ev adoption will delay that by increasing demand for electricity.

Saudi Arabia has a lot of crude oil power plants, most steam turbine and combined cycle plants can burn crude oil or lighter oils or nat gas.

Most seem to forget refining oil into diesel or gasoline is a lossy process and has to be accounted for in the efficiency comparison on top of the power plant itself being more efficient than a small ICE with much better emissions systems.

Its not ideal to run an EV off oil fired power but its better than refining and burning in a vehicle.

Its all about flexibility, and EV can run off every power source known to man.

The US has a lot of natural gas and its one of the least carbon emitting fossil fuels and can be burned at close to 60% efficiency in a power plant.

Once your vehicles are EV's you are no longer tied to a specific power source which allows for energy independence. It moves all emissions controls to the power plants where it can be very complex, heavy and expensive as needed. You are also offsetting the emissions by any solar, wind, hydro, nuclear you have mixed in and can move more toward that over time without changing the vehicles.

[jharrell]

Originally Posted by Ludo

Most who experience the sound of a Ford V10 or a Cummins diesel will choose the ICE

Thats a great reason to keep spitting pollution up into the air, the sound...

I am sure you can get a speaker system installed to simulate that without making me breath your emissions.

As I have gotten older I am starting to really dislike loud vehicles, I don't to hear your music or your engine, its a form of pollution. This is one bonus of going to EV's for me.

[propchef]

Originally Posted by RossWilliams

I am not aware of any place that is burning pure crude for electricity. Most current EVs are powered by fossil fuel generated electricity since there is no available emission free power that is not already in use. That will change as the grid becomes emission free, but ev adoption will delay that by increasing demand for electricity.



If you want immediate effect, we need to increase the efficiency of the ICE fleet. A hybrid EV is possible now and the battery could do double duty boondocking and charged with solar panels. Make it a plugin that can be charged off a normal 15 amp household circuit

We have Sonoma Clean Power which gets its electricity from "clean" sources including small hydro (but not large hydro), wind, solar, and geothermal. We live in Cloverdale.

We haven't had a brown-out or blackout since 2019 and we've never had to use our genny at home. The number of EVs here continues to increase. https://sonomacleanpower.org/frequently-asked-questions

SCP is a customer-owned public agency operated in the Cities of Cloverdale, Cotati, Fort Bragg, Petaluma, Point Arena, Rohnert Park, Santa Rosa, Sebastopol, Sonoma, Willits and the Town of Windsor, and the Counties of Sonoma and Mendocino.

SCP is run by its Chief Executive Officer, Geof Syphers, and a small staff. It is governed by the Board of Directors of the Sonoma Clean Power Authority, a joint powers authority of the member counties and cities that have voted to join. The Board is advised by a public Community Advisory Committee.

SCP provides electricity for our customers in Sonoma and Mendocino Counties from cleaner sources with lower greenhouse emissions at about the same price as PG&E.

PG&E continues to maintain the grid, repair power lines, and provide our shared customers’ one consolidated utility bill with SCP electric generation charges and PG&E electric delivery charges. SCP is not involved in gas procurement or delivery.

[tetranz]

Originally Posted by jharrell

I am sure you can get a speaker system installed to simulate that without making me breath your emissions.

One car manufacturer (BMW I think) is even developing a fake / simulated stick shift transmission for one of their EVs for those who want the experience of three pedals.

[propchef]

Originally Posted by tetranz

One car manufacturer (BMW I think) is even developing a fake / simulated stick shift transmission for one of their EVs for those who want the experience of three pedals.

Lexus. https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a4...-transmission/

BMW puts sound generators in their M series vehicles because the ICE BMW makes are vewwy vewwy quiet.

[NevadaNick]

Subaru programs shifts into the cvt transmission so that you think its changing gears, a lot can be done to fool people or make them believe something is happening that really isn’t.