So lets talk CCC (Payload)

[Dennis58]

From dsrace on 10-26-2019 -- when it comes to hauling large or full sized sand toys ( sand rails, dune buggies and sxs's) don't waste your time looking at any toy haulers built in indiana! none of them will work, they do not have proper ccc, they know it and will not change it. i know as i have personally contacted four of them, there responses were there product isn't for me. you need to look at genesis or eclipse models or maybe pacific coach. those units are built for off roaders by off roders with proper ccc's

So during my search on iRV2 for information on the Grand Design Momentum TH I came across the above post. My brain went into hmmmm mode and I went to my short list of TH and had both Grand Design and Genesis on my list so I started to compare apples to apples.

Grand Design Momentum 21G - UVW-6400/GVWR-9905/CCC-3595

Genesis Supreme 21SB - UVW-6720/GVWR-9900/CCC-3180

What am I missing here? Seems to me the Indiana TH is comparable to the West Coast TH.

Dennis

[Ray,IN]

You are assuming that quote is accurate instead of an opinion.

[Dennis58]

Ray that was my first thought but I have since read in another thread about this issue where dsrace was talking more about the 5th wheel 2 axel TH. It would appear that the Cyclone has issues, I pulled the specs for a 2020 Cyclone 3713 2 axel TH;

UVW - 15,375
GVWR - 17,000
CCC- 1,625

Now back out 100 gal water and two 30 lb propane tanks (1,081 lb) and the new CCC is 544 lbs. This is before you even put the first paper plate in the TH.

That really sucks for a TH, a Honda Fourtrax Rincon weighs in at 657 lbs dry.

[aknavy]

There are a bunch of toy haulers with horrible ccc numbers, but there are a fair amount with good numbers as well - you just have to pay attention to the specs and the yellow sticker.



It affects regular fiver as well. Most salesmen know nothing about ccc, so you're on your own. My rig has almost 4k ccc, but the limiting factor is the pinbox. Everything else is capable of more. Pay attention to the axles when looking - many are on the ragged edge of the specs.

[dsrace]

i was referring to fifthwheel toyhaulers. so ray you can call it an opinion as that is your right. i did not write down or document all that i looked at during those searches so i have nothing to back it up with right now. or course the same could be said about your comment. so during my search for a toyhauler that was under 40' in total length and had an actual garage of 14' with a min of 4k lb ccc. grand design didn't have anything, road warrior either, cyclone nothing, jayco nothing either etc etc the only companies that did were eclipse, genesis suprememe and pacific coach works. now it would appear that momentum has stepped up there ccc on the https://www.granddesignrv.com/showro...loorplans/350g by maybe 150 lbs. one thing they will not tell you at grand design is the truth about the total weight of the happijac system in the rear. so when i asked the tech at the plant, he had to email someone from the design team who had to email an engineer. that is what they told me atleast. so when i asked the eclipse tech that he knew and aswered right on the spot....750lbs for the whole assembly. now imagine ordering the toyhauler with the happijac system omitted! now try and do it lol they won't reduce the price, they will work hard to discourage you from doing it. i have most the emails to back up my statements but not all of them anymore.

so when a company advertises there unit will haul a sxs then then are claiming there unit will handle a 2k lb toy plus gear. any unit hauling a 1000cc sxs or full size toy like a sand rail has to have a min of 4k lb ccc to be remotely safe. now is that just my opinnion ray???? maybe but running 100 lbs under or over of gvwr is not my idea of safe, might be yours but damn sure not mine.

Attitude Widelite 5W
so to be clear, compare the momentum 350 G to the eclipse 3322sag in length, height, dry weight , cargo space and especially ccc. spoiler alert the 3322sag has a 5640 cc where the momentum linked above is almost half that. yep ray it's just my opinion lmao

[dsrace]

Dennis58 if you read through the options list ( as i always do as i have a large toy) you'll see that genesis supreme offers a 6k lb axle upgrade. that adds an additional 1600 lbs to gvwr which adds directly to ccc or am i wrong in deducting dry weight from gvwr to get ccc?? that would bring the ccc of the 21sb to roughly 4780 lbs and that's a decent ccc in my world as if your 3500 loaded your not maxing out the toyhauler. on top of that grand design only has 79" or true cargo space, 14' if you have a really narrow toy. so the grand design is really only built to haul motor bikes, quads, golf carts or little rascals lol eclipse ( attitude etc etc) also offers axle upgrades. grand design, road warrior, jayco plus a few others do not. you can call and ask as i did. you'll get the same answer.....that's a big no.

[Dennis58]

Originally Posted by dsrace

Dennis58 if you read through the options list ( as i always do as i have a large toy) you'll see that genesis supreme offers a 6k lb axle upgrade. that adds an additional 1600 lbs to gvwr which adds directly to ccc or am i wrong in deducting dry weight from gvwr to get ccc?? that would bring the ccc of the 21sb to roughly 4780 lbs and that's a decent ccc in my world as if your 3500 loaded your not maxing out the toyhauler. on top of that grand design only has 79" or true cargo space, 14' if you have a really narrow toy. so the grand design is really only built to haul motor bikes, quads, golf carts or little rascals lol eclipse ( attitude etc etc) also offers axle upgrades. grand design, road warrior, jayco plus a few others do not. you can call and ask as i did. you'll get the same answer.....that's a big no.

dsrace you are spot on correct. I find myself now looking at the installed axel rating first before I even get excited about garage space or lack of for most TH'ers. The deeper I dove into the world of TH specs for both used and new the more I figured out that they are not all that. I sometimes wonder if the best approach is to find a good deal on used and just replace the axels from day one and be done with it.

[dsrace]

Originally Posted by Dennis58

dsrace you are spot on correct. I find myself now looking at the installed axel rating first before I even get excited about garage space or lack of for most TH'ers. The deeper I dove into the world of TH specs for both used and new the more I figured out that they are not all that. I sometimes wonder if the best approach is to find a good deal on used and just replace the axels from day one and be done with it.

i too considered that some time back. what i learned was that pretty much most indiana manufacturers use base chassis's. so the frame itself cannot handle much over gvwr. this is a cheaper way to go for the plant. its a diservice to the consumer but we all know there thoughts on that. so weekend warrior was the leader in the toyhauler industry from day 1 up until they closed. bad run of frames from lci and he actually warrantied them.

now i have looked inside genesis, attitudes,pacific coachworks and sand storm by forest river. i toured all on the same lot at a dealership in ft worth texas. so the sandstorm was a direct knock off of the 2814 attitude ( bumper hitch) but damn nice. not many know this but the forest river toyhauler plant on the west coast builds better quality units than there indiana plant. they do so because they have to in order to manufacture in cali. it really shows when you look at them side by side in person.

to be honest i believe the eclipse brands are better built than genesis but i would give te forest river west coast a hard look first. i do not know if they offer axle upgrades but the west coast builts quality is superior to indianans plant hands down.

if you want strength then look at lakota, merhow, sundowner or atc toyhaulers.

[dsrace]

https://youtu.be/OGIoapHGUMo

[dsrace]

https://youtu.be/wBu6YBYrwUM

all horse trailer floor plans on lakota, merhow,logan or sundowner are available in toyhaulers as well.

[Dennis58]

My search for a TH has always been based on smaller is better. I didn't want anything longer that 26' total (23' box) on a BP or 30' on a 5th wheel that doesn't exist.

Today in my internet travels I found that 30' 5th wheel TH.

Forest River Cherokke Black Label 255RR Toy Hauler (5th Wheel)
Exterior Lenght 29' 9" X 8' Wide
GVWR - 11,615
UVW - 6,844
CCC - 4,771
6K axels

There are always trade offs, 40 Gal fresh water, No fuel station. Not sure if I can stuff a Cam-Am X3 2-Seat in this.

[dsrace]

very nice ccc for sure. i have a 2011 wolf pack 295 for sale right now but it's 34' long and 8'6" wide. the wide body is the only way my sand rail will fit in. i bet your can am will fit in the 8' wide models. they made a 275 for 2 years that i did like but the eastern side of the country doens't want to keep there toys maintained and just cannot have open floor plans.

https://youtu.be/OoUy9nuy5mk