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Old 08-29-2022, 07:17 AM   #1
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Toyhauler 5ver comparison

The wife and I are currently searching for our next rig as ours will go to its new home next week.

We are looking for a shorter TH 5ver that gives us enough garage to fit our golf cart and/or kayaks but we want to stay under 39' if at all possible.

So far we've looked at a few models and would like some input on them.

Keystone Raptor 351:


Keystone Carbon 338:


Forest River XLR Nitro 351:

Grand Design Momentum 353G:
Grand Design Momentum 354M:


My biggest 2 concerns with the Keystones were cable slideouts and the rhino box since I can't use my Goosebox with it.

The XLR seems nice (can't find one in person) but I am unsure as to how well they're built.

We can't find a GD anywhere near us to look at, but they seem nice in the videos we've watched.

Raptors seem to be the TH to look for in the past, but I was not completely impressed by the build quality of the newer ones. We'd really appreciate some input. If you have one of these what do you like? What do you dislike? Are any more prone to certain issues than others?
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Old 08-30-2022, 11:27 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nlambert View Post
Keystone Raptor 351:
Keystone Carbon 338:
Forest River XLR Nitro 351:
Grand Design Momentum 353G:
Grand Design Momentum 354M:

My biggest 2 concerns with the Keystones were cable slideouts and the rhino box since I can't use my Goosebox with it.

The XLR seems nice (can't find one in person) but I am unsure as to how well they're built.

We can't find a GD anywhere near us to look at, but they seem nice in the videos we've watched.

Raptors seem to be the TH to look for in the past, but I was not completely impressed by the build quality of the newer ones. We'd really appreciate some input. If you have one of these what do you like? What do you dislike? Are any more prone to certain issues than others?
We have a Road Warrior, but larger than what you are looking to buy. But I will say the most common one we saw out West has been the Momentum brands.
We do have a cable system on our small bedroom slide. but have a hydraulic system on our large slide. The cable system is common on these. My opinion only but is better than the Swintek trac system. We have had to replace the gearbox on the bedroom slide. We are full timing since June 2019, so our rig is in constant use.
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Old 09-02-2022, 12:40 PM   #3
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I have toured all 3 brands in several different models. The materials used, fit and finish, over all look/feel were all the same imo. Looked at the gd 350 40' with 13'6" garage.......it was ok.
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Old 09-02-2022, 03:21 PM   #4
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I will drop this here and run....


Alliance Valor
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Old 09-05-2022, 05:20 PM   #5
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Nlambert, X2 on the above post. When we were shopping about 18 months ago we went through a Alliance Valor 3611 (I think that was the model). They had several including that TH model at a RV show in Florida. We were VERY impressed with everything from the frame rail size to the interior.

When we sold our coach we simply could not locate one, or at least we couldn't locate one that the dealer didn't want almost MSRP for. We ended up buying our second choice which has worked out great and for less money. But I still think the Alliance brand is worth investigating.
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Old 09-06-2022, 06:59 AM   #6
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We looked at a few Alliances at the local dealer but we are looking for used. Alliance carried quite the price tag new (as did the Raptors) and we really don't want to put 6 figures into one right now.

We're actually eyeballing a couple of 2017-2018 Fuzions that fit the bill. One has the Flex Armor roof coating on it, which is interesting. He claims it cost him $10k to have installed. We should be going to see it on Friday. Looks like we can still run our Goosebox on that model.
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Old 09-06-2022, 02:02 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Nlambert View Post
We looked at a few Alliances at the local dealer but we are looking for used. Alliance carried quite the price tag new (as did the Raptors) and we really don't want to put 6 figures into one right now...cut...
Don't know how many new RVs you have purchased or what your history is, but here is our story which could help you with a purchase. We located our floor plan with the interior color and options we wanted. We located three available that were an exact match, one in Georgia, one in Texas, and one in Michigan. I simply called each dealer and offered 30% + less than MSRP. The Michigan and Texas dealer would take the deal. It ended up with the Texas dealer coming down another $1,000 plus throwing in a Dish satellite system and some other stuff.

Moral of the story, just because a new model may have an MSRP of $130,000 doesn't mean you can't buy it for between $89,000 and $91,000 my friend. There is a huge markup between the manufacturer and dealer.
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Old 09-07-2022, 06:22 AM   #8
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Don't know how many new RVs you have purchased or what your history is, but here is our story which could help you with a purchase. We located our floor plan with the interior color and options we wanted. We located three available that were an exact match, one in Georgia, one in Texas, and one in Michigan. I simply called each dealer and offered 30% + less than MSRP. The Michigan and Texas dealer would take the deal. It ended up with the Texas dealer coming down another $1,000 plus throwing in a Dish satellite system and some other stuff.

Moral of the story, just because a new model may have an MSRP of $130,000 doesn't mean you can't buy it for between $89,000 and $91,000 my friend. There is a huge markup between the manufacturer and dealer.
This next one will make #6 for my wife and I, but I grew up with my dad always owning one.

2007 Jayco Jayflight TT - bought used
2008 Coachmen Adrenaline 5ver TH - bought used
2014 Heartland Prowler 5ver - bought used
2017 Keystone Hideout BH 5ver - bought new
2020 Chaparral 5ver - bought new

I'm familiar with the MSRP game unfortunately. It appears that now dealers (at least in our area of the Southeast) have cranked up the listed MSRP and the "discounts" are still 10-15% higher than a comparable model 2 years ago. I chalk it up to inflation I guess.

We also have some serious concerns with build quality of the post-covid units. My 2020 was a pre-covid unit and it has only graced the service dept once (for a bad black tank flush breaker valve). Aside from that the quality has been outstanding. We've walked through about 20 different ones now on the local dealer lots and it is alarmingly obvious that there are issues with brand new ones that I am not used to seeing. It has almost solidified that we will not purchase new, nor will we purchase anything newer than a 2019... at least for a while.

One big one on the Keystone (Raptor and Carbon) line that has me concerned are the bubbling roof membranes. We walked through a new one last week and I noticed bubbling at the edge of the roofline. With permission the sales rep and I walked the roof. There were patches of bubbles (some the size of a trash can lid) where you could tell that the roof was not secured. While we were up there, we could see this on multiple brands of campers on the lot, but it seemed most prevalent on the Keystones. On a trip back into town Monday we stopped through a dealer in the middle of the state to see if theirs had similar issues. Yep. Every single one of them.

Other issues that we've noticed multiple times were hanging/loose/disconnected wiring, poorly installed trim work inside (some falling off from the delivery trip to the dealer), loose windows (this was on the Alliance Valor.. one Paradigm unit had a shattered window from transit.. the frame was also loose so I presume it rattled too much)

For $100k+ this is not something that I would expect to see. Our rig was only $53k brand new out the door and the quality is exceptional in comparison.

Sorry for the long response, but it kind of explains where our mindset is now.
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Old 10-03-2022, 07:23 AM   #9
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Took the wife out last Sat 10/1/22 to do a little window dressing turnout where she could weigh apples to apples. Visited five of closest RV Dealers, one to see what was out there at all and two to see price ranges. I would be quite satisfied for a shorter 28-36' unit, two axle undercarriage on 16-18" rubber with a 9-12' garage.
First stop no sales person to ask questions, were on the lot for over forty minutes and NOBODY, had Gravity THs but all were locked and could not get a feel on them. Next was ROGUE Dealer, nice units, heavier where suspect that in Framing increase larger unit was close to 18,000#, expensive as could be imagined but still nice. Next two were independent dealers with a Few Used units but only one had a used TH, the JAYCO units dealer I saw no draw. The dealer with the used unit was asking as much for 2020 used model as would Discount to on 2022s they are trying to relieve themselves of. Had VENOM models from 38-42' and were OK, some better upgrades as porcelain toilets, larger refrigerators, nicer tie downs for cargo but too much for what we are looking to do, were reasonably Heavy at smallest 15,000#. Did have a lone TORQUE 371 on yard, that one I was more inclined to, features, length, interior quality and appliances. Final Dealer had XLRs and one FUEL. from 30' to 38' in the XLR series, only one had a Generator, shorter had NO Division from Garage to living quarters, NONE had auto level systems, amenities inside sparce and spartan, not a desired style even for pricing. FUEL was a step Up, 38', several slide outs, access to forward sleeping area was on preferred side(Left), away from Entry Door, issues I had were old style Small LP/Low volt fridge, 6 gal hot water system instead of the becoming common tankless units seen in other makes, was exceptionally LIGHT in overall weight 13,000# where have to wonder of framing value.
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Old 10-03-2022, 05:56 PM   #10
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Make sure you buy a rv thats built with "azdel" sidewalls! Older rv's all delaminate especially if you live in the south with high humidity and hurricanes. I Finally bought a 2020 toyhauler winnebago spyder 29stt with azdel. Ive had at least 6 trailers in the past..all built with cheap luan and cardboard that falls apart. My newer spyder is amazing, so modern and all the latest and greatest features. And it will hold its value over all the competion of the torques, styker, fuels.
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Old 10-04-2022, 08:18 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nlambert View Post
This next one will make #6 for my wife and I, but I grew up with my dad always owning one.

2007 Jayco Jayflight TT - bought used
2008 Coachmen Adrenaline 5ver TH - bought used
2014 Heartland Prowler 5ver - bought used
2017 Keystone Hideout BH 5ver - bought new
2020 Chaparral 5ver - bought new

I'm familiar with the MSRP game unfortunately. It appears that now dealers (at least in our area of the Southeast) have cranked up the listed MSRP and the "discounts" are still 10-15% higher than a comparable model 2 years ago. I chalk it up to inflation I guess.

Sorry for the long response, but it kind of explains where our mindset is now.
I probably didn't explain our purchase strategy enough. When we found the exact model with the exact options/colors we wanted the nationwide search revealed there were only 3 at dealers. To succeed in getting over $30,000 off MSRP we were willing to drive anywhere in the country to pick it up, so local dealers not willing to deal has never effected our buying strategy.

I guess I understand if someone doesn't have the time available to take a week and drive 1,800 miles to buy an RV, but we are retired and full timers so it never mattered to us anyway.
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Old 10-18-2022, 04:52 PM   #12
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Just to add, I did not care for the XLR series, just seemed 'Cheap' but the dealers here have begun markdown discounts on 22s due to a LOT of Inventory the Wholesalers do NOT want to pick up.

I saw a NEW Torque unit a 331 that fit the bill for us and is still being further discounted already down to $56k.
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