Why doesn't anyone build a well built small ultralite with luxury features and slide?

[First Timer]

Found out from dealer, tongue weight is 580, trailer is 5200 and max load is another 1800. This is a Laredo by Keystone and is loaded up with options as standard. Yes underbelly is sealed with heat duct and extra insulation in walls, floors, roof, etc. I am also having tank heated blankets installed.

[RustyJC]

Sounds like the dealer is giving you DRY weights which are meaningless since you won't be towing an unloaded trailer. For sizing purposes, use the GVWR (apparently 5200 + 1800 = 7000 lbs) and loaded tongue weight (12% x 7000 = 840 lbs). That will give you a worst case condition unless you overload the trailer.

Rusty

[First Timer]

I am new to having TT. Had class A before. I am using guide for weights shown on brochure for this trailer. Fits my needs perfect for my disability and thought might be helpful to others for same problems.

[SmokeyWren]

Originally Posted by First Timer

I am using guide for weights shown on brochure for this trailer.

Bad plan. You'll probably be overloaded by the middle of your third towing trip. Take Rusty's advice. Assume the weight of the wet and loaded trailer will be the GVWR of the trailer, and the hitch weight will be 12% to 15% of the GVWR of the trailer. Rusty said 12%, but that's the average and some have more, including mine at around 15%.

And most so-called "half ton towable" TTs aren't. My 20' TT weighs 4,780 wet and loaded on the road. It overloads my F-150 by 100# over the GVWR of the F-150. Sure, my EcoBoost drivetrain can pull the weight, no problem, but the half-ton suspension cannot haul the hitch weight without being overloaded over the GVWR of the pickup.

In order to tow a 7,000-pound TT with a half-ton pickup without being overloaded, the pickup must have over 8,000 pounds GVWR. For example, the 2011-up F-150 with the Heavy Duty Payload package has a GVWR of 8,200 pounds. But if you try to find one of those to buy, you'll find out that dealers don't stock them, so the only way to get one is to order it and wait a coupla months for it to be delivered.

[H-Rambler25]

Originally Posted by bandsmills

After many months of research online, rv forums, purchased TT guide review and other methods of investigating TT for sale out there I have come to the conclusion that no one builds what I am looking for with the features I want. This is very disappointing. There are so many brands and models out there you would think that there is nothing new under the sun being built. There are features I need and features I want. I need a small (20-22 feet) well built (not industry standard, disabled hubby can't do repairs) with a slide (will be snowbirding so need the room), ultralite weight (no more than 5500-5900 GVWR), shower (can't be tub/shower combo because my disabled hubby can't lift his feet to get in the tub), power with manual override (awning, stabilizer jacks, tongue jack), heated enclosed underbelly, black tank flush, TT.

I want solid surface counters, leather furniture, frameless tinted windows, slam latch luggage doors, flush dinette slide out, upgraded faucets in kitchen and bath, couch/murphy bed combo with just enough counter space to fit my coffee pot.

It doesn't exist. If I could only talk Livin Lite and Outdoors rv into makeing me a custom TT!

Since that isn't going to happen, does anyone out there have any suggestions for getting as close as I can to my ideal?

Get ahold of Superior RV Manufacturing in Vancouver,Washington. Ask for Rich and tell him what you are looking for.
Chuck

[H-Rambler25]

Originally Posted by SmokeyWren

Bad plan. You'll probably be overloaded by the middle of your third towing trip. Take Rusty's advice. Assume the weight of the wet and loaded trailer will be the GVWR of the trailer, and the hitch weight will be 12% to 15% of the GVWR of the trailer. Rusty said 12%, but that's the average and some have more, including mine at around 15%.

And most so-called "half ton towable" TTs aren't. My 20' TT weighs 4,780 wet and loaded on the road. It overloads my F-150 by 100# over the GVWR of the F-150. Sure, my EcoBoost drivetrain can pull the weight, no problem, but the half-ton suspension cannot haul the hitch weight without being overloaded over the GVWR of the pickup.

In order to tow a 7,000-pound TT with a half-ton pickup without being overloaded, the pickup must have over 8,000 pounds GVWR. For example, the 2011-up F-150 with the Heavy Duty Payload package has a GVWR of 8,200 pounds. But if you try to find one of those to buy, you'll find out that dealers don't stock them, so the only way to get one is to order it and wait a coupla months for it to be delivered.

I tow my 25ft HR Alumscape with a 2007 Toyota Tundra 4x4 Crew Max 5.7V8. The truck handles the trailer very well.
Chuck

[SmokeyWren]

Originally Posted by H-Rambler25

I tow my 25ft HR Alumscape with a 2007 Toyota Tundra 4x4 Crew Max 5.7V8. The truck handles the trailer very well.
Chuck

Yeah, but what does the CAT scale say when the pickup and trailer are wet and loaded in the middle of a long camping trip? Add the weights on the front and rear axles of the Tundra and compare to the GVWR of the Tundra. I'll bet you'll be overloaded.

I recently towed a 25' 8,000-pound fifth wheel trailer from Austin to Midland, through the Hill country. If I didn't have the CAT scale ticket to prove different, I'd say my F-150 with 7,100 pounds GVWR "handles the trailer very well". No problems at all.

But the CAT scale says my GVW was 7,980 compared to the 7,100 GVWR. Overloaded. My GCW was 14,780 compared to the 14,000 GCWR of the F-150. Overloaded. My rGAW was 4,680 compared to the rGAWR of 3,850. In other words, I was severely overloaded, but that wonderful EcoBoost engine didn't even breathe hard. I suspect your 5.7L Toy engine has about the same power and torque, so it should have similar performance when similarly overloaded, and you might not realize you were overloaded if you didn't weigh the wet and loaded rig.

The weight on the 5er trailer axles was 6,800 compared to the combined trailer GAWR of 7,000, so the trailer wasn't overloaded. It was just too much trailer for that half-ton pickup to tow without the tow vehicle being overloaded.

Knowing I was overloaded, I was extremely careful on that trip. I made it with no problems, but I was lucky, and I don't plan on doing such a stupid thing again. Next time Darling Daughter needs to move her 5er more than a block or so, we'll find more truck to tow it with.

[BFlinn181]

Originally Posted by SmokeyWren

....Knowing I was overloaded, I was extremely careful on that trip. I made it with no problems, but I was lucky, and I don't plan on doing such a stupid thing again. Next time Darling Daughter needs to move her 5er more than a block or so, we'll find more truck to tow it with.

Unfortunately, some will hear your story and say, "What's the problem, you made it with no issues?" Often I see folks saying, "I traveled for XXX miles and never had a problem." as if that makes it SAFE to overload, travel without brakes on a Toad, etc. It only takes once.

[First Timer]

So what I am hearing the very small trailers like R Pods etc that can be pulled by small suv or cars really need at least a 1/2 ton with largest motor and heaviest suspension made. Half ton towables need at least a 3/4 ton or 1 ton with extra everything to be safe. Anything larger like large fifth wheels etc need at least a medium sized Tractor or larger!

[RustyJC]

Based on the trailer's GVWR, if the trailer you're considering can be towed by a tow vehicle without exceeding the loaded tow vehicle's GCWR, GVWR or GAWRs, then go for it.

What many posters are saying is that all too many newbies look at the overly optimistic dry weight of the trailer and trailer tow rating of the tow vehicle, say to themselves, "Hey, I'm good to go" then wonder how they wound up with the tow vehicle severely overloaded. Just educate yourself on how to correctly size a trailer and tow vehicle combination (there are plenty of resources in the Towing and Tow Vehicles forum here on iRV2) and go from there.

Rusty

[SmokeyWren]

Originally Posted by First Timer

So what I am hearing the very small trailers like R Pods etc that can be pulled by small suv or cars really need at least a 1/2 ton with largest motor and heaviest suspension made. Half ton towables need at least a 3/4 ton or 1 ton with extra everything to be safe.

What Rusty said. You cannot go by the manufacturer's published dry trailer weight or the tow vehicle's tow rating. Dry weights are notoriously understated, and tow ratings are notoriously overstated. So ignore those numbers and use more realistic numbers.

GVWR and GCWR are computed by professional engineers, and you can rely on those. Payload and tow ratings are computed by marketers, so ignore those. The marketers use assumptions that result in the biggest numbers possible for payload and tow ratings, so they are usually overstated, and often severely overstated. That's true for all brands, whether from GM, Ram, Ford, Toyota, Nissan, whoever. For example I had an F-250 diesel with tow rating of over 13,000 pounds. But my 25' fifth wheel trailer with GVWR of only 7,900 pounds overloaded that tow vehicle by several hundred pounds over the GVWR of the pickup.

So use the GVWR and the GCWR of the tow vehicle to make your calculations. The tow vehicle manufacturers all warn that you should NEVER exceed either the GVWR or GCWR of the tow vehicle.

GVWR of the tow vehicle minus the actual weight of the wet and loaded tow vehicle shows you the maximum hitch weight of any trailer you can tow without overloading the suspension and brakes of the tow vehicle. Hitch weight of a TT averages around 12 to 13 percent of trailer weight, but it can be over 15 percent. So use 15 percent as your estimate when shopping for a trailer.

GCWR of the tow vehicle minus the actual weight of the wet and loaded tow vehicle shows you the maximum weight of the trailer you can tow without exceeding the GCWR of the tow vehicle.

That's easier said than done because you must know the actual weight of the wet and loaded tow vehicle before you can compute maximum GVWR of any trailer you can tow without being overloaded. Wet and loaded tow vehicle means full of fuel and with all the people, pets, tools, and anything else that will be in the tow vehicle when on the road.

GVWR of the tow vehicle is the most weight that can be on the four tires of the tow vehicle when wet and loaded on the road, including people, pets, tools, jacks, trailer hitch weight, bedliner and/or bed rug, camper shell, and anything else that might be in or on the tow vehicle when on the road. If you use GVWR as your estimated weight of the wet and loaded tow vehicle for estimating max trailer weight you can tow without being overloaded, you'll be much less likely to be overloaded over the GVWR when on the road. The GVWR indicates the strength of the suspension, brakes and frame of the tow vehicle, so it restricts hitch weight, but otherwise has nothing to do with how heavy a trailer you can pull.

GVWR of the trailer is the most weight that can be on the trailer axles and hitch without being overloaded. Use the trailer GVWR only to match trailer to tow vehicle. After you buy the trailer, ignore the GVWR of the trailer and go by the weight on the trailer axles vs. trailer GAWR to determine if the trailer is overloaded. (The hitch weight will be on the tow vehicle, not on the trailer axles.)

GCWR of the tow vehicle is the maximum combined weight of the wet and loaded trailer plus tow vehicle that the tow vehicle can handle without overheating something in the drivetrain and without being the slowpoke holding up traffic on hills and mountain passes. GCWR minus the wet and loaded weight of the trailer tells you the maximum weight that can be on the tires of the tow vehicle without being overloaded with that trailer.

Anything larger like large fifth wheels etc. need at least a medium sized Tractor or larger!

Well no, that's an exaggeration. However, 5ers have a lot more hitch weight than TTs, so you do have to have more truck to tow them without being overloaded. Large 5ers (and horse trailers with living quarters, and cargo trailers such as race trailers with living quarters) usually require at least a one-ton dually because of hitch weight. The gripers are usually folks that want to tow a 16k toy hauler with a tow vehicle that has single rear wheels (SRW). Depending of the exact truck, most SRW pickups cannot tow a 5er/gooseneck trailer that grosses over around 12,000 pounds without being overloaded. So that 18k toy hauler requires a dually.

And dually pickups have gained weight hauling capability over the years. Before 2005, F-350 diesel duallys had GCWR of only 20,000 pounds, so about 12,000 pounds was the max weight of any trailer they could tow without being overloaded. But current F-350 diesel duallys have GCWR of 30,000 pounds and GVWR of 14,000 pounds , so they can now tow 20k trailers without being overloaded. And if that's not enough, the F-450 pickup has GCWR of 33,000 pounds.

[SmokeyWren]

First Timer, I apologize if the above post causes your eyes to glaze over. It's routine simple math for me, but I realize for most folks it's mind boggling.

Maybe it would be easier for most people to keep the goal in mind: Never exceed any of the tow vehicle manufacturer's weight limits. GVWR is the first weight limit you'll probably bump up against on a tow vehicle that has single rear wheels (SRW), so work on that one first. If you never exceed the GVWR of the tow vehicle, then you'll probably be below the other weight limits: axles, receiver hitch, GCWR, tires, wheels, brakes, etc.

Beginning with the dry weight of the trailer and trying to guess how much weight you can add without going over the limit is an exercise in futility. Use the GVWR of the trailer as the probable weight of the wet and loaded trailer when on the road, and you'll probably be okay. Use 15% of the GVWR of a tandem axle travel trailer (TT) as the wet and loaded hitch weight of the trailer, and you'll probably be okay.

The proof in the pudding will be the CAT scale report in the middle of your third RV trip. Fill up with gas, then weigh the wet and loaded rig with all the people inside the tow vehicle. Add the weights on the front and rear axles of the tow vehicle, then compare to the GVWR of the tow vehicle. Compare the gross weight of the entire rig to the GCWR of the tow vehicle. Compare the trailer axle weight to the combined GAWR of the trailer axles. If you don't exceed the GVWR, GCWR or trailer axle weight ratings, you did a good job of matching trailer to tow vehicle.

[First Timer]

Thanks for info. My trailer is located in an rv park for work purposes and will not be pulled anywhere for at least next 2 yrs. When we do get ready to tow we will probably upgrade to a 3/4 ton diesel 4x4 with all tow options and then some, so when we do pull my current trailer it will be good and won't have to upgrade tow vehicle if we get a larger trailer.

[H-Rambler25]

Bigfoot might fit you they are well built expensive new no slide outs. But they did make a 3000 series trailer like a 2401 or 2801 with slide out. They were built very high quality and heavy.