Will the real Four Season travel trailer please stand up?

[Engineer Guy]

First, you cannot go wrong with your choice of an ORV Trailer.

When I first saw their 'Black Rock' Trailer on line, the old saying about 'imitation being the sincerest form of flattery' came to mind. They appear identical to my 5,000 lb. 2015 Nash 23D. The closest Black Rock is several hundred lbs. heavier. I wanted to stick with a Ford F-150 Gas [5.0 Liter - 300 HP], and chose the Nash as a close, well-insulated match. It is. I let the Tranny do the work on Grades, and engage the 'Tow' setting. My own subjective preferences in a Rural area were to avoid higher Diesel Fuel costs, and very high upper Engine costs if Non-Warranty work was needed. For the same cost reason, I decided to stay away from Eco Boost Turbos. I keep Vehicles for ~10 Years.

As it was told to me, Ron Nash began ORV to offer a Four Season Trailer with even higher Insulation Values than the Nash. Note that ORV, like Nash, is based in La Grange OR. Note the Interior/Exterior similarities in the Brochures.

Consider carrying a small Tank of Compressed Air, as many Four-Wheelers do for airing up Tires. Blow out your Trailer Plumbing before Traveling in freezing temps; after emptying the Water Tank. The rear Plumbing Valves in my Nash are at the low point, and drain effectively. There's also a means to put a bit of Antifreeze in the Water Pump with an 'A-B' Valve if that concerns you. On my 31' Avion, I added a Drain Valve to the Water Heater Anode Fitting for easy draining. In ~10 Minutes, you can Freeze-proof your Trailer, as I do. It's a Routine, just as is set-up at a Campsite. Freezing Water doesn't intrinsically harm Plumbing. The lack of expansion room does. As with Houses, partially-empty Plumbing survives freezing just fine if there is room for expansion.

I built a Super-Insulated Solar House. I used Astrofoil in all the Walls and Ceiling on the warm side of Fiberglas Insulation. Here's the anecdotal 'Test'. Scraps of Astrofoil are fantastic to sit on when in a Camp Chair, or put under a Mattress; due to Radiant reflection. Covering your Legs with a Scrap reflects Body Heat very well on a cold Evening. This is why such Material has been used on Satellites to reflect Solar Radiation. It works. It is like a Space Blanket, but on un-tearable Backing. I used another version w/o the 'Bubbles' under the Roof Sheathing. It keeps my Attic about 30 F Degrees cooler in Summer. This permits the R-52 Attic Insulation below it to have to 'work' at a lower Temperature Differential to the Living Areas below. This lowers HVAC Duty Cycles, just as it does in my Nash. When not Boondocking, and at temps at/above freezing, I heat with a 1,500 Watt/~5,200 BTU Electric Heater that draws ~12.5 Amps @ 120 VAC.

I plan to retrofit R-8/Inch Thermax in my Nash Storage Compartments below the Bed, and under the Slide-Out Dinette to complete the fantastic Nash Insulation Package. The 25,000 BTU Furnace, and 13,500 BTU A/C obviously have shorter Duty Cycles in my Nash than in other Trailers I've owned. Indeed, on cool Mornings, simply firing up the Stove to heat Coffee Water brings the Trailer up to temp.

~R-3 Double Pane Windows, or Skylights, in well-Insulated Walls represent major Thermal 'leaks' of significant square footage. ORV's Skylight Inserts to insulate them better is very smart. Any Owner can copy this idea, and/or make Astrofoil Window Coverings if so inclined.

[ModestMonk]

Originally Posted by scrapperjohn

We just got a Lance 2285, 4 season rated.
Heated enclosed tanks.
From what I have seen, no one on this site is familiar with Lance..
Also check L.O.A. ( lance owners of America)
forum...

Extremely well built, I've interacted with Lance factory and my local dealer. They sent me their beautiful brochure, a few weeks ago. The 2285 would be our floor plan also.
This was the answer to my email:

Of course!

The 2285 does feature our full 4S package:

At the heart of out 4S package is our materials and construction process. We use specific materials such as denser block foam insulation, TPO synthetic roof material & solid nose cap as well as dual pane windows. Our investment in precise CNC computer cutting machines on the manufacturing end allow us to fit each crack and crevice together perfectly without a chance of a draft- creating one of the best insulated units out on the road. We then go one step further to heat and insulate all of our holding tanks and valves and tie them into our ducted heating system to ensure a fully functioning unit in the coldest of environments.

Sidewalls R9
Floor R7
Roof R11

[scrapperjohn]

So, we got our 2285 at discount, 2017, lat year model, ( don't ask why it's last year)
New 2017.5 or 2018 have different décor.
MSRP was $43,000, was marked down to $34,999.
We added 160 watt solar, $$$$.
They would not budge on the $34,999.
We were out the door, tax's,tital solar for $40,000.
They are willing to deal ,as new models are already in production.

[scrapperjohn]

Add on to previous post,
Yes Lance is more $$ than a Jaco, after years of going to R.V.shows, we noticed build quality..
Low end Jaco , seem to be entry level R.V.'s.
We fell in love with this floor plan!!
Our dream is to full time in this someday!!
Just my two cents...
Good luck on finding YOUR favorite R.V!!!!
Thanks for listening to me!!

[Gordon Dewald]

IMO there are some very good units out there but none are a true 4 season setup. My concern is they are not ventilated sufficiently to prevent moisture from getting into the walls and cabinets. Moisture = mold.

Measures can be taken to reduce moisture such as the use of a dehumidifier.

Air circulation is questionable as most of the vents are centrally located unlike a house which has the vents located on the perimeter.

[Cumminsfan]

There are many that tout 4 seasons. Some do it better than others. What I've found on my so called 4 season 5th wheel is that I needed to close up gaps to keep air from coming in. There's more to getting a 4 seasons than just having enclosed valves and heated tanks. You need to have dual pane windows. Caulk or seal air gaps from any entry point. How is the slide insulated. Heck my so called 4 season 5er's slide floor isn't even insulated. The roof and the 3 slide walls are. But whats the point if the floor isn't? Unless the slide floor is raised it won't have insulation under it.
Another thing to check out is how the slide seals on the floor. On some units that have a flush floor you can lift the carpet flap up and look under and sometimes see daylight. How's that going keep the cold out?
Very few people camp in extreme cold. Most are out when the temps hit the low 30's or 40's. So having enclosed valves and heated tanks aren't even necessary. Whats more important is the drafty cold air that moves around from all the air gaps that aren't sealed tight. Or slide floors that are cold. Those colder drafty areas are what hurts when trying to keep the inside nice and warm. Unlike your home which is sealed or should be sealed tightly you don't get a lot of cold drafts. Trailers warm up then cool off a lot faster when it's cold outside. The better built 4 season ones hold the heat in better.
Next time it's cold out, like 40* or lower get inside your trailer and turn on a ceiling vent fan. Maxair or Fantastic hopefully, and go around and pop off some access panels or covers and stick your hand back inside the cabinets, or anywhere you have penetrations. I guarantee you'll feel cold air getting sucked in.

[scrapperjohn]

Only air leaks I have found on our Lance is around slide out!
ONLY had for 2 weeks, in driveway, MAJOR rain, with slide out out!!!
No leaks!!
Checked most systems all o.k.
This site doesn't know or like Lance trailers...
More $$ than Jaco .....
Better build quality ..
Not a Airstream....
But you can't get a Airstream for less than $60,0000 new.!!
And no slideout!!

[marcham]

Je

Originally Posted by ModestMonk

Hello I'm a newbie here. Lurked about and have read many threads.

I have also read and searched extensively for a travel trailer brand that will work for my wife and myself. We run an organic fruit and vegetable farm during the warm months. Our down time will be from October to April. We live in the northeast and we want to visit some of our northern neighbors as well as visiting the children and grand babies.

I've got my list down to a few brands based on our vehicle and layout needs.

We have (in order of ranking)
From the factory:
ODM: Creekside
Northwood: Nash; *Artic Fox would but they weigh in too heavy for my needs.

If I make some mods:
PrimeTime: Tracer Executive series
Lance


I've feel confident that I have really looked well. The better insulated trailers are up front about what they offer, some others only infer they have special deep freeze packages. Our real hang up is what's protecting the fresh water package and lines while your driving or back home for a week or two?

*we want an enclosed, insulated and hot air heated...with a backup 12v heat pad on the fresh water tank. As well as a properly insulted roof.
Opinions anyone? Help?

What is your expectation of camping in cold weather? Nights below freezing with daytime highs above freezing is manageable.

If you need to camp for several days with temps 24hrs below freezing you need to consider building a full skirt and a heated water line. If you have hook ups electrically heated tanks and valves are preferred to using the gas furnace. If you plan to heat for several weeks with the gas furnace then you might consider leasing a large external tank.

Of all the brands you listed Artic Fox is by far the best insulated and best built. Yes they are heavy, they are heavy because they are well built.

There's lots of folks in North Dakota living year round in RVs... When things go wrong and tanks burst, it ain't pretty!

The next consideration is where would you camp? In states where it snows, many rv parks close for the winter.

[Superslif]

We looked at the Arctic Fox line while in MT. this summer. There is a newer Arctic Fox dealer in Cincinnati OH. ( Mike Jones RV ) Were also looking a higher quality 25' to 30' tt. We live in NE. OH. and like to get out till the end of Nov. Have looked at Winnebago, Arctic Fox, Cougar....

Not to say we want to camp in the dead of winter, but like to get out late March to Thanksgiving.

[Cumminsfan]

Originally Posted by scrapperjohn

Only air leaks I have found on our Lance is around slide out!
ONLY had for 2 weeks, in driveway, MAJOR rain, with slide out out!!!
No leaks!!
Checked most systems all o.k.
This site doesn't know or like Lance trailers...
More $$ than Jaco .....
Better build quality ..
Not a Airstream....
But you can't get a Airstream for less than $60,0000 new.!!
And no slideout!!

Maybe some on here don't know about Lance. I know enough think they're well built. Problem is the their floor plans and some different features that may or may not appeal to most.
They don't offer the types of floor plans that appeal to most buyers. The dinette is a good climb up into. No real comfortable way to sit and watch a movie. Small TV's. No drawers in the kitchen and small bathrooms. And the addition of the front window over the bed is not for everyone.

While they have many pro's they also have many con's for some.

[ModestMonk]

Originally Posted by scrapperjohn

So, we got our 2285 at discount, 2017, lat year model, ( don't ask why it's last year)
New 2017.5 or 2018 have different décor.
MSRP was $43,000, was marked down to $34,999.
We added 160 watt solar, $$$$.
They would not budge on the $34,999.
We were out the door, tax's,tital solar for $40,000.
They are willing to deal ,as new models are already in production.

Originally Posted by Cumminsfan

Maybe some on here don't know about Lance. I know enough think they're well built. Problem is the their floor plans and some different features that may or may not appeal to most.
They don't offer the types of floor plans that appeal to most buyers. The dinette is a good climb up into. No real comfortable way to sit and watch a movie. Small TV's. No drawers in the kitchen and small bathrooms. And the addition of the front window over the bed is not for everyone.

While they have many pro's they also have many con's for some.

So far, every trailer that is within our tow range fits that billing. The Lance, with the raised platform for the dinette is the same with other brands we are looking at. The layout, quality of build and weight are spot on for us with the 2285. However, at 40K it is deficient in insulation (R11,R9, R7), w/ a large glass window over my head while sleeping to allow faster dissipation of heat and allow condensation of our breath to drip back down onto us when sleeping in cold weather (*our perception)?

If we could optimize the purchase price with good timing, it's a possible choice that we won't exclude.

[ModestMonk]

Originally Posted by Engineer Guy

First, you cannot go wrong with your choice of an ORV Trailer.

We agree!

Originally Posted by Engineer Guy

As it was told to me, Ron Nash began ORV to offer a Four Season Trailer with even higher Insulation Values than the Nash. Note that ORV, like Nash, is based in La Grange OR. Note the Interior/Exterior similarities in the Brochures.

Why both have been our focal point!

Originally Posted by Engineer Guy

Consider carrying a small Tank of Compressed Air, as many Four-Wheelers do for airing up Tires. Blow out your Trailer Plumbing before Traveling in freezing temps; after emptying the Water Tank. The rear Plumbing Valves in my Nash are at the low point, and drain effectively. There's also a means to put a bit of Antifreeze in the Water Pump with an 'A-B' Valve if that concerns you. On my 31' Avion, I added a Drain Valve to the Water Heater Anode Fitting for easy draining. In ~10 Minutes, you can Freeze-proof your Trailer, as I do. It's a Routine, just as is set-up at a Campsite. Freezing Water doesn't intrinsically harm Plumbing. The lack of expansion room does. As with Houses, partially-empty Plumbing survives freezing just fine if there is room for expansion.

Fantastic considerations!

Originally Posted by Engineer Guy

I built a Super-Insulated Solar House. I used Astrofoil in all the Walls and Ceiling on the warm side of Fiberglas Insulation. Here's the anecdotal 'Test'. Scraps of Astrofoil are fantastic to sit on when in a Camp Chair, or put under a Mattress; due to Radiant reflection. Covering your Legs with a Scrap reflects Body Heat very well on a cold Evening. This is why such Material has been used on Satellites to reflect Solar Radiation. It works. It is like a Space Blanket, but on un-tearable Backing. I used another version w/o the 'Bubbles' under the Roof Sheathing. It keeps my Attic about 30 F Degrees cooler in Summer. This permits the R-52 Attic Insulation below it to have to 'work' at a lower Temperature Differential to the Living Areas below. This lowers HVAC Duty Cycles, just as it does in my Nash. When not Boondocking, and at temps at/above freezing, I heat with a 1,500 Watt/~5,200 BTU Electric Heater that draws ~12.5 Amps @ 120 VAC.

I plan to retrofit R-8/Inch Thermax in my Nash Storage Compartments below the Bed, and under the Slide-Out Dinette to complete the fantastic Nash Insulation Package. The 25,000 BTU Furnace, and 13,500 BTU A/C obviously have shorter Duty Cycles in my Nash than in other Trailers I've owned. Indeed, on cool Mornings, simply firing up the Stove to heat Coffee Water brings the Trailer up to temp.

~R-3 Double Pane Windows, or Skylights, in well-Insulated Walls represent major Thermal 'leaks' of significant square footage. ORV's Skylight Inserts to insulate them better is very smart. Any Owner can copy this idea, and/or make Astrofoil Window Coverings if so inclined.

I agree and acknowledge the benefit of astro foil type products, I just have a different view of the R value. Manufacturers are claiming R 15 for these products. My understanding that the "resistance" rates fall off significantly when the temps on both sides of the foils start to fall off and close in on each other. I have no issue with the complimentary relationship that these two types of insulation materials offer!

[Engineer Guy]

.
A few more Random Thoughts to consider; irrespective of Brand...

1. I keep an Eye on Trailer Humidity Levels via a lil Radio Shack Indoor/Outdoor Thermometer. $25- or so. When in doubt, crack open a Window just a tad to not lose Heat. Disclaimer: We RV mostly in dry Western States.

2. Lighting a good ole Wooden Match, and then blowing it out, makes for a good Air Leak Detector via how the Smoke travels. I'm quite happy with the Seal around the Nash Slide-Out.

3. I can see Fiberglas Insulation around the Ceiling TV Cable Port, and the Fresh Water Plumbing under the Sink. So, the Floor/Ceiling Insulation is Reflective Foil over Pink Fiberglas. See stated Insulation values linked below.

4. Water/Waste Volumes can't/don't freeze right at 32 F. That takes several Days/Nights at well-below-Freezing temps. From living in my 1983 31' Avion that had superb Insulation Values for the time, I learned the tipping point for various problems at 0 and -10 F Nighttime Temps @ 6,100'. The Tanks warm some during the Day, and cool at Night. The problems start when Tanks never get above 32 F.

With Electric Tongue Jack, and a few other negotiated Options, my new 2015 Nash cost $26k and change off the Lot. At that price, I figgered I could add some comfort 'tweaks' while meeting my Spec of towing with an F-150. One trick when not Boondocking would be running a safe Electric Heater while running only the Furnace Fan to circulate warm Air down by the Tanks. Sleeping with a piece of Astrofoil under the Mattress in another prior Trailer allowed really lowering the Interior Temp at Night.

- Northwood - Nash 23D Page -
.

[ModestMonk]

Originally Posted by Engineer Guy

.
A few more Random Thoughts to consider; irrespective of Brand...

1. I keep an Eye on Trailer Humidity Levels via a lil Radio Shack Indoor/Outdoor Thermometer. $25- or so. When in doubt, crack open a Window just a tad to not lose Heat. Disclaimer: We RV mostly in dry Western States.

2. Lighting a good ole Wooden Match, and then blowing it out, makes for a good Air Leak Detector via how the Smoke travels. I'm quite happy with the Seal around the Nash Slide-Out.

3. I can see Fiberglas Insulation around the Ceiling TV Cable Port, and the Fresh Water Plumbing under the Sink. So, the Floor/Ceiling Insulation is Reflective Foil over Pink Fiberglas. See stated Insulation values linked below.

4. Water/Waste Volumes can't/don't freeze right at 32 F. That takes several Days/Nights at well-below-Freezing temps. From living in my 1983 31' Avion that had superb Insulation Values for the time, I learned the tipping point for various problems at 0 and -10 F Nighttime Temps @ 6,100'. The Tanks warm some during the Day, and cool at Night. The problems start when Tanks never get above 32 F.

With Electric Tongue Jack, and a few other negotiated Options, my new 2015 Nash cost $26k and change off the Lot. At that price, I figgered I could add some comfort 'tweaks' while meeting my Spec of towing with an F-150. One trick when not Boondocking would be running a safe Electric Heater while running only the Furnace Fan to circulate warm Air down by the Tanks. Sleeping with a piece of Astrofoil under the Mattress in another prior Trailer allowed really lowering the Interior Temp at Night.

- Northwood - Nash 23D Page -
.

Great points! Number one number two number three are all things that we do or have done here at the house.

Number four, long as you're skirting those temperatures you can get away with it it's almost a safe bet to be prepared for the inevitable night the temperatures drop beyond what you expected. I've started reading some folks only use bottled water for all their needs when at 0*. They put regular windshield washer fluid in the gray and black tanks.