Starlink internet

[docj]

Originally Posted by Isaac-1

As a non-technical analogy for those that are not following the details, for those that are old enough to remember, I would describe the state of Starlink today to be akin to the state of the interstate highway system in the early 1970's, maybe late 1960's, you can see it shaping up, but there are still lots of construction zones, gaps, and long detours along the route, but it is still usually better than the alternative.

Well said, even though your analogy is a bit unusual. The "growing pains" of the interstate highway system were very real even though most of the population is too young to have personally experienced them.

I don't have any doubt but that eventually LEO-based internet will provide good connectivity over much of the planet. As to how long it will take for this coverage to fully materialize is anyone's guess but previous experience teaches us that it will take some amount of time for the system to mature and that's not limited to just launching more satellites. No doubt the first "operating systems" will have glitches and connections will get lost, be slow, etc., all of which are issues that can eventually be overcome. But, once again, there's that annoying word "eventually."

What I've been cautioning against is the assumption that, out of the gate, LEO-based internet will be fast, reliable and cost-competitive. I will be impressed if, at first, it achieves two of these three objectives. No doubt, it eventually will achieve all three, but, once again, there's that annoying word "eventually"!

Joel (AKA docj)

[Isaac-1]

I agree, though I am optimistic that eventually can be measured in months, and not in years or decades, just in a double digit number of months, I just don't know if we are talking 18, 72, or 96 months. Though like the interstate highway system, I suspect it will be mostly functional in short order, and just take a while to round out.

[MSHappyCampers]

Joel, I agree with your assessment, but on the other hand, who would have ever dreamed that he could design a rocket that could be used and then returned to land upright, ready to be used again! That just blows my mind!

[wkmoore41]

What happened to Halo Fi a couple of years ago. They were building and launching low orbit satellite from Florida. 7 /28 /20 Supposed to be big announcement about Apple Fi high speed internet as little as $4.99 per month. Things could get interesting.

[Solo_RV_Guy]

Originally Posted by MSHappyCampers

Joel, I agree with your assessment, but on the other hand, who would have ever dreamed that he could design a rocket that could be used and then returned to land upright, ready to be used again! That just blows my mind!

Musk didn't design it, he ordered it to be designed. Like Edison, Musk receives credit for work he did not personally do.

For fun, look up how Edison treated Nicola Tesla - that ultimately pushed Tesla to George Westinghouse, who also screwed Mr. Tesla although it took longer.

I suspect this may be the link between Musk, the "visionary" using the Tesla name - he'll have others do the real work while he packs another bowl of "California's Finest" into the bong.

[docj]

Originally Posted by Isaac-1

I agree, though I am optimistic that eventually can be measured in months, and not in years or decades, just in a double digit number of months, I just don't know if we are talking 18, 72, or 96 months. Though like the interstate highway system, I suspect it will be mostly functional in short order, and just take a while to round out.

Based on what we know at present, I would suggest that true utility of Starlink to the RV community will depend on the release of an affordable, fixed phased array antenna that can be mounted flat on a roof.

The tracking system described a few posts earlier is going to have to be two-axis capable and provide relatively high speed (6 minutes from horizon to horizon) tracking. Not the sort of system that I would expect to take kindly to being repeatedly loaded and unloaded from storage in the RV. JMO

I'm fairly confident that an affordable phased array antenna can be built, but it might take a year or two to reach the market.

[MSHappyCampers]

Originally Posted by Solo_RV_Guy

Musk didn't design it, he ordered it to be designed. Like Edison, Musk receives credit for work he did not personally do.

For fun, look up how Edison treated Nicola Tesla - that ultimately pushed Tesla to George Westinghouse, who also screwed Mr. Tesla although it took longer.

I suspect this may be the link between Musk, the "visionary" using the Tesla name - he'll have others do the real work while he packs another bowl of "California's Finest" into the bong.

You're right, he didn't design it, but he gets the job done, and to me that's what counts!

[Isaac-1]

Docj, given what we have seen of the beta testing antenna and its mount, I think it would be fairly easy to build an RV rood mount box with an actuator that could lift the mount up for stationary use, and lower it down into a protective housing during travel to lower wind load. The only thing that might make it difficult is whether there is a "park" command for the dish to put it back into pointing straight up after first power on. I strongly suspect there would be if for nothing else than packing for warranty returns.

[Mackeyser]

several folks like those at the Mobile Internet Resource Center have put out videos.

Best practices once it's out is likely to be a hybrid setup of Starlink for on the road and boon docking and cellular for congested/urban areas and RV parks.

It's likely gonna be the case that if you're in dense RV/urban areas... FL where I'm at comes to mind, that if you're mostly in these spots, nothing changes, but if you get out there... it'll be amazing.

That's how it looks so far, anyway.

Also, initial rollout if it includes the US will only include the northern most part. I think the initial beta is only going to cover 53 degrees North, so Canada basically and Northern Europe. As more satellites come on line, the ability to get it will move further south.

SpaceX and Tesla move crazy fast, so in the grand scheme of things, it'll be here before we know it, but for those who aren't early adopters, it's likely to be 4-ish years before we see nationwide coverage.

Also, while there may be a theoretical capacity of 1Gbps, I think the reality is that if you see even 400Mbps, you'll be doing well as it's shared capacity (think if you had cable internet in an oversold neighborhood).

It'll be amazing, no doubt, and will open up new opportunities, but it won't change everything for everyone. Reality, as it tends to do, will also show up.

[photraveller]

Is Musk this brilliant engineer/scientist? I don't think so. He is a visionist and marketing guy.

Instead of Edison analogizes I would compare him to Steve Jobs. Jobs had vision and marketing sense. Without Steve Wozniak. Apple doesn't exist and Jobs is probably known for something else (if at all).

Salesman, visionary, or even snake oil salesman, for wherever reason Musk is capable of getting people to invest huge amounts of money into his companies even when he takes that money and uses it for things that don't apply (directly) to his main product.

As much "success" Musk and his companies have had, they are still pretty much a house of cards financially. If investors dry up, or worse turn on him, most of his operations would implode very quickly.

But I have to give him credit. He has managed to get us and thousands of other people talking about future products for free! He manages to get people to put money down on products that they may not see for years! Finally he has managed to get Tesla stock prices so over valued that at times it appears bitcoin like.

I hope his roll continues. SpaceX is good for space. Tesla helped accelerate EV and driver assist technologies. Starlink has the great potential to help millions of people including those of us who enjoy driving to those places less traveled. In addition to the millions (billions?) who don't have current access to high speed internet.

I doubt Starlink will be all that is promised when it initially launches. However more than likely the software/hardware issues will be sorted out within a few years at most. Too much money at stake both commercially and militarily for them not to succeed.

Either way, they will probably take some of my money as soon as it is available.

Steve

[bandcworkhorse]

Thousands of satellites...moving at high speed...from just one company. We may hear a lot more "Houston, we have a problem" transmissions from future astronauts. I'm certainly no expert, but from what I've read there is already enough stuff floating around out there, at all altitudes, that launching and finding a parking space without getting into a mid-air (mid-space?) is a challenge. Anybody from NASA or SpaceCom have a comment?

[Isaac-1]

I am not from NASA, but have read a fair amount about the Starlink program, part of the design is to keep enough fuel onboard to de-orbit the satellites at the end of their life, also they are in low enough orbit so that it will naturally degrade and de-orbit within about 5 years if the satellite stops responding. In addition to this these satellites are specifically designed to burn up while re-entering the atmosphere so as to not be a threat to people on the surface.

[Zymurgest]

Originally Posted by gsgriffin

I'm not a physicist, but I do believe the reasons for being in LEO is to lower the latency of the signal...much faster round-trip in communication that current stationary. There is also the very high speed at which these satellites are traveling that with centrifugal force help apply a slight opposite force to gravity. The satellites do need to regularly adjust their orbit with their Ion thrusters and will automatically fall back to earth within 5 years if they lose power. That is something like a fall rate of around 40 miles per year (somewhere close to 600 feet a day)....without any power.

As an ex engineering physicist, I was commenting more about the statement about gravity than the other one about latency issues. The difference between LEO and HEO is only about 2 light seconds, so the latency from star-link would theoretically be less than 100 ms, whereas geostationary satellites are around 2-4 THOUSAND ms, which is a huge difference. But the gravity well of earth affects many things beyond the orbit of the moon. Weightless doesn't mean massless or even zero gravity; its just that it's not the usual and customary way of thinking about gravity as we experience it here on earth. Safe and happy travels!

[Dav L]

Originally Posted by photraveller

Is Musk this brilliant engineer/scientist? I don't think so. He is a visionist and marketing guy.

Instead of Edison analogizes I would compare him to Steve Jobs. Jobs had vision and marketing sense. Without Steve Wozniak. Apple doesn't exist and Jobs is probably known for something else (if at all).

Salesman, visionary, or even snake oil salesman, for wherever reason Musk is capable of getting people to invest huge amounts of money into his companies even when he takes that money and uses it for things that don't apply (directly) to his main product.

...

Steve

Well, what makes an Engineer an Engineer...a degree?
"He graduated with an undergraduate degree in economics and stayed for a second bachelor's degree in physics. After leaving Penn, Musk headed to Stanford University in California to pursue a PhD in energy physics."

Anyone that goes to Stanford for a PhD in physics sounds pretty sharp to me.

Without ever having spoken to the man personally, I think he has all the thought process to be called a heck of an engineer.

Personally I have a business / comp sci degrees. But everyone assumes I am an Engineer. I did run an Advanced Engineering automotive group, but no Engineering degree so I don't call myself an Engineer. It's a professional title like MD = Doctor. Plenty of people have gotten into trouble leading people on that they are a Doctor when not.

But back to Musk....I think he easily could have been a Marketer, an Engineer, a Scientist or just about anything else he wanted to take the time to get a piece of paper. The important thing is that he thinks logically and has the energy to push through obstacles. And has enough background in enough areas to have all types of conversations with the varied people it takes to be successful in the technical areas that he enjoys. And enough personality to convince us all to go with him.

Steve Jobs was likely less of an engineer but incredible visionary and could motivate experts from other skills to engage. Like Woz.

Early money made it easier for both.