Another RV Fridge Fire

[Old-Biscuit]

Originally Posted by Kid Gloves

Your service and knowledge are appreciated.

The chart is rather simplistic. Sometimes, simple is the best approach. Personally, I’d be surprised if it would take a group of 8th graders more than an hour to construct the chart. Once the USG gets involved, it could be months and millions.

Originally Posted by Psneeld

Hate to disappoint you, but some in the USCG are very good at their jobs and save the public millions of dollars each year by looking for ways to be more efficient and worthy of the budget to accomplish what they have been tasked to do.

Pretty sure Kid Gloves was referring to US Government

Not US Coast Guard

[Psneeld]

Originally Posted by Old-Biscuit

Pretty sure Kid Gloves was referring to US Government

Not US Coast Guard

Guess I miss read, but I feel pretty strongly about always complaining about the government in general. Plus the USCG... IS part of the USG

My recent dealings with big business hasn't revealed they are any better.

[Kid Gloves]

Originally Posted by Psneeld

Hate to disappoint you, but some in the USCG are very good at their jobs and save the public millions of dollars each year by looking for ways to be more efficient and worthy of the budget to accomplish what they have been tasked to do.

Not many 8th graders get woken up in the middle of the night, get briefed that people may die if they don't respond, yet conditions or the situation may cause the death of that dispatched crew. The alternative is sit safe and sound at the station and listed to people or even just realize your non response has possibly caused their deaths. No, not many 8th graders have been in that position to come up with a good decision matrix.

Ultimately it isn't that simple....the matrix is a "guide"...many, many inputs by all involved focus on the likelihood/consequence categories and constantly feedback as the mission develops.

For decades the USCG and all military lost way too many personnel due to a little too much "gung ho" attitude and "operational risk management" was developed to minimize loss while still performing dangerous missions. Often USCG crews died while the people signaling distress made it through OK without assistance....totally unacceptable when slower, steady and intelligent decision making can reduce those outcomes.

Again, the program has probably saved more in assets and lives than it cost the US Government. Maybe because it was homegrown in house and NOT left to a bunch of defense contractors who had no skin in the game. I certainly did.

There was no suggestion that 8th graders would be capable of performing a rescue mission. It was all about the chart. It is basic, simplistic, generic, well known information that could be applied to any situation from financial decisions to stealing a candy bar from a convenience store. In my opinion, the creation of the chart does not warrant the celebration.

[CLIFFTALL]

Let’s get back to the topic and stop this bickering back and forth.
Thanks

[TXiceman]

If you disagree with the information and cannot provide any proof otherwise, you do not have to buy the product.

Ken

[Kid Gloves]

Originally Posted by TXiceman

If you disagree with the information and cannot provide any proof otherwise, you do not have to buy the product.

Ken

Truth be told, no one has to buy the product whether or not any set of arbitrary conditions are met. Heck, we’ve even seen a low cost alternative to accomplish the same task. Is it not possible that someone could agree with the information and not be able to provider any proof otherwise, and still choose to not buy the product?

[Fridge Defend]

Originally Posted by Kid Gloves

Truth be told, no one has to buy the product whether or not any set of arbitrary conditions are met. Heck, we’ve even seen a low cost alternative to accomplish the same task. Is it not possible that someone could agree with the information and not be able to provider any proof otherwise, and still choose to not buy the product?

"no one has to buy the product", so true, makes me wonder why some whine about a safety product? There is no excuse for folks that do not promote safety.

"Heck, we’ve even seen a low cost alternative to accomplish the same task.", this is comical. First, you have not had to deal with folks that have attempted to try what was proposed, it is not an alternative. Can you provide the science behind the statement that "accomplish the same task"?

"and not be able to provider any proof otherwise" is a confusing statement that requires clarification.

Please see this video and comment on the proof. We are not used in reference to careful and delicate treatment of a person or situation, fires are life altering:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVQi-HnLQvM

Thanks for your input, we are all about breaking the false information associated with the right use of science

[Archer2]

Thanks for the video. It demonstrates the issue pretty clearly but I have a couple of questions.
First, was the test and measurements shown from an actual refrigerator or were they from a simulated unit? If it was an actual fridge what was the brand and were all of its normal components installed and operable including any manufacturer-installed safety devices like thermofuses?
Second, in the demonstration the Fridge Defender set point appears to be set sequentially slightly higher for each of 6 overheating cycles.. Is the 6 cycles a fixed number after which the FD shuts down the fridge until manually reset or does it reset itself automatically after some time, temp or pressure condition is met?
Lastly, how did you determine that exceeding the boiling point of water for any period of time resulted in irreversible damage to the system?

[Fred2]

In April of 2020 I installed Fridge Defend on our Norcold 1200 which has an Amish cooling unit. I immediately noticed improved cooling and the new control unit seemed to be regulating boiler temperature as designed. Unfortunately, it's difficult to say if there's an actual improvement in safety until there is a problem. My opportunity to observe Fridge Defend's effectiveness came a few months ago. It's my belief that Fridge Defend prevented our RV and the facility it was in from burning.

We took our coach to a shop in an industrial complex to have a new roof installed. This was a very large facility with dozens of motorhomes in the immediate area close to the buildings.

The re-roofing process consisted of a sprayed on material similar to a truck bed liner. To protect against over-spray the entire coach was draped with a thin plastic drop cloth. Ordinarily a coach would be masked for only a few hours and would have been ready for pick up the next day. However, the application equipment malfunctioned which caused our coach to be covered in plastic for at least 24 hours while awaiting parts to repair the equipment.

With the delay in completing the roof we needed to go to the shop to retrieve a few things from our coach. When we arrived and entered our RV we found the temperature IN THE REFRIGERATOR WAS 100°+, which is the upper limit of our temperature monitor. We quickly determined that the tech had completely covered the side wall refrigerator vent. I believe the roof vent was covered as well.

We uncovered and removed the side wall vent in order to gain access to the back of the refrigerator. The refrigerator, under the control of Fridge Defend, was found to be off and in a cool down cycle, in an effort to prevent the boiler from heating past the predetermined set point (365°?).

It soon became apparent that the refrigerator had been in a continuous cycle of heating up, shutting down, cooling down (relatively speaking), and restarting, for at least 24 hours. The back of the refrigerator had gotten so hot that the plastic cover on the Fridge Defend control unit had warped. The control unit, however, continued to work flawlessly.

With the vents uncovered, allowing the boiler to cool down, the refrigerator returned to normal operation. Both the refrigerator and Fridge Defend are performing today as they had before this event.

I absolutely believe Fridge Defend helped to avoid a boiler failure and avert disaster, the loss of our coach, millions of dollars in collateral damage, and potential loss of life.
Simply put, Fridge Defend WORKS!

P.S. In case you're wondering, prior to taking our coach to the shop I did ask if they required the refrigerator to be emptied and turned off. I was told "No, it will be fine" - probably not the best answer from them, or decision on my part to listen to them.

[Fridge Defend]

Originally Posted by Archer2

Thanks for the video. It demonstrates the issue pretty clearly but I have a couple of questions.
First, was the test and measurements shown from an actual refrigerator or were they from a simulated unit? If it was an actual fridge what was the brand and were all of its normal components installed and operable including any manufacturer-installed safety devices like thermofuses?
Second, in the demonstration the Fridge Defender set point appears to be set sequentially slightly higher for each of 6 overheating cycles.. Is the 6 cycles a fixed number after which the FD shuts down the fridge until manually reset or does it reset itself automatically after some time, temp or pressure condition is met?
Lastly, how did you determine that exceeding the boiling point of water for any period of time resulted in irreversible damage to the system?

Thanks for your comments, sorry we are slow in responding. We are trying to get caught up after being gone for a week consulting on an RV fire.

"First, was the test and measurements shown from an actual refrigerator"

Yes, is it a DM2652 type Dometic fridge.

"If it was an actual fridge what was the brand and were all of its normal components installed and operable including any manufacturer-installed safety devices like thermofuses?"

Yes

"the demonstration the Fridge Defender set point appears to be set sequentially slightly higher for each of 6 overheating cycles.. Is the 6 cycles a fixed number after which the FD shuts down the fridge until manually reset or does it reset itself automatically after some time, temp or pressure condition is met?"

Thanks for noticing the stepped control method. Yes, in most cases the fridge will not restart if the set-point is not adjusted. This allows the fridge to restart, and start cooling again. This is a very important observation, and this is why the recalls cannot keep the fridge from failing.

Yes, the Fridge Defend shuts off the fridge and displays a message after a finite number of trips. Any automatic control system has to turn the control over to the operator at some point for them to deal with whatever situation is causing an alarm. So yes, the operator has to respond at some point.

But, after 10,000 miles of road testing, we have the algorithm so that the fridge will almost always restart. We modeled our control after Roosevelt Falls at Yellowstone NP, where there is no place for an RV to park level.
Although there is not much to see at this location, we came to find that the average stay was about 50 minutes. Thus, one can park, have the boiler over heat, and get to camp that night and have the fridge up and running

"how did you determine that exceeding the boiling point of water for any period of time resulted in irreversible damage to the system?"

It is just a fact based on the chemical engineering of the system.

I guess you may ask for an example

We have a DM2652 cooling unit, that Dometic has seen protected by the Fridge Defend at an FMCA rally. We quit counting how many times we operated it at 3 degrees off-level when we hit 300. We may have 400 tilts, and automatic restarts for this cooling unit. We bought the DM2652 new, and have used it as a demo at every rally and event. We preform real time data logging for the participants, I hope you can join us and view for your self, or you can see the same cooling unit here:

Proof Fridge Does Not Cool When Boiler Overheats

Thanks for your insightful questions, we are here to help and want to promote safety

[Archer2]

Thank you very much for filling in the details. It does look like you have engineered an easy and cost effective device to mitigate against a potential serious failure.
It is a little disturbing that the manufacturers did not build in a similar system at the factory considering the downside. But any way, nice work!

[Fridge Defend]

Originally Posted by Archer2

Thank you very much for filling in the details. It does look like you have engineered an easy and cost effective device to mitigate against a potential serious failure.
It is a little disturbing that the manufacturers did not build in a similar system at the factory considering the downside. But any way, nice work!

Thanks for your kind comments, we are glad to help

"It is a little disturbing that the manufacturers did not build in a similar system at the factory considering the downside."

We fully agree, we have been Dometic fans since 1959, we find it disturbing that a high quality product does not have simple safety protection given the facts

Thanks for using iRV2

[Fridge Defend]

Originally Posted by Fred2

In April of 2020 I installed Fridge Defend on our Norcold 1200 which has an Amish cooling unit. I immediately noticed improved cooling and the new control unit seemed to be regulating boiler temperature as designed. Unfortunately, it's difficult to say if there's an actual improvement in safety until there is a problem. My opportunity to observe Fridge Defend's effectiveness came a few months ago. It's my belief that Fridge Defend prevented our RV and the facility it was in from burning.

We took our coach to a shop in an industrial complex to have a new roof installed. This was a very large facility with dozens of motorhomes in the immediate area close to the buildings.

The re-roofing process consisted of a sprayed on material similar to a truck bed liner. To protect against over-spray the entire coach was draped with a thin plastic drop cloth. Ordinarily a coach would be masked for only a few hours and would have been ready for pick up the next day. However, the application equipment malfunctioned which caused our coach to be covered in plastic for at least 24 hours while awaiting parts to repair the equipment.

With the delay in completing the roof we needed to go to the shop to retrieve a few things from our coach. When we arrived and entered our RV we found the temperature IN THE REFRIGERATOR WAS 100°+, which is the upper limit of our temperature monitor. We quickly determined that the tech had completely covered the side wall refrigerator vent. I believe the roof vent was covered as well.

We uncovered and removed the side wall vent in order to gain access to the back of the refrigerator. The refrigerator, under the control of Fridge Defend, was found to be off and in a cool down cycle, in an effort to prevent the boiler from heating past the predetermined set point (365°?).

It soon became apparent that the refrigerator had been in a continuous cycle of heating up, shutting down, cooling down (relatively speaking), and restarting, for at least 24 hours. The back of the refrigerator had gotten so hot that the plastic cover on the Fridge Defend control unit had warped. The control unit, however, continued to work flawlessly.

With the vents uncovered, allowing the boiler to cool down, the refrigerator returned to normal operation. Both the refrigerator and Fridge Defend are performing today as they had before this event.

I absolutely believe Fridge Defend helped to avoid a boiler failure and avert disaster, the loss of our coach, millions of dollars in collateral damage, and potential loss of life.
Simply put, Fridge Defend WORKS!

P.S. In case you're wondering, prior to taking our coach to the shop I did ask if they required the refrigerator to be emptied and turned off. I was told "No, it will be fine" - probably not the best answer from them, or decision on my part to listen to them.

Thanks for your comments, it means more for folks to hear from the general RVing public on these matters.

The fact is that we viewed two RVs broken down on the side of the road when driving back from the airport this weekend. Both are on mountain passes, no surprise as this is typically where failures occur due to the stress of climbing.

I would put money on the fact that both of these RV refrigerators were running and that their boilers were overheating.

Thanks for you testimony