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Old 11-24-2021, 07:19 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by Uniblab View Post
Lithium batteries comparable to the LA ones I'm using are still 3-4x more expensive even after accounting for a max 50% discharge rate
Just not true lithium are not 3-4 times more expensive please look at the prices and not just battle born.

You can get 400ah of lithium for 1200-1600. I believe you would need 8 LA golf cart for 400ah usable and the Sam club price for one is 90$ thatís 800 bucks so how do you get that lithium is 3-4 times more money.

Stop spreading inaccurate information.

The number of people in this discussion that have not looked up the price of lithium batteries lately is astonishing. How hard is it to google 400ah lifepo4 battery and look at the prices.
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Old 11-24-2021, 08:04 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by followingsea View Post
Let me explain why again. You used the term 'affordable'.

That term describes your ability to pay not a property of the battery.
OK, I will say it again. LifePO4 batteries CAN BE affordable. I said it.

This is fun.
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Old 11-24-2021, 08:14 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by Uniblab View Post
You won't catch me chastising anyone for sticking with LA batteries - not everyone wants or needs the latest and greatest pricey stuff. And I'm sorry but $400 for a 100 amp-hour LiFePo4 battery is still pricey to me. When they drop to $250 (same price as two Sams club golf cart batteries), then I'll agree they are no longer pricey.
I don't think you will have to wait very long. But to me it is silly to wait until the price of a generally superior product is "the same" as an inferior one before you call it equitable value. That seems a little dishonest.

To be clear, the point of the arguments in the thread is that the OP, and others, continue to incorrectly portray both the current cost of Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries, as well as their functionality, and use it as a reason to question the decisions of people that use them.

1) I don't care if you want to use LA, LifePO4, or caged squirrels for your battery power. I am not chastising anybody for using a Lead Acid battery.

2) I care a little bit if you are publicly dishonest about the properties of the LA, LifePO, and squirrels. But even that level of caring is rapidly diminishing. I have too many other windmills at which to tilt.
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Old 11-24-2021, 08:24 PM   #158
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Iím sold on lithium for my boat. right now they are initially about twice the cost of a flooded cell, have 4+x the number of cycles, are less than half the weight, have a flatter voltage profile, donít outgas, can be mounted anyway/anywhere. So in time they will be cheaper. I just hope the lithium with bms isnít like the 10,000 hour led bulbs I use 2 hours a day and replace every 2 years 🤔
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Old 11-24-2021, 08:50 PM   #159
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best test on batteries I have seen so far.

This has sold me on Lithium. When I am due I will likely go this way, even with cost of new inverter since my 08 will probably not be the best choice.

https://www.mortonsonthemove.com/bes...-test-results/
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Old 11-25-2021, 12:46 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by Biljol View Post

Stop spreading inaccurate information.

.
There was no inaccurate information in my post. 100 amp-hour SLA batteries are commonly available for $50 each. That's $1 per useable amp-hour. A 100 amp-hour LiFePo4 battery is still $400 last I checked. That's $4 per useable amp-hour which is 4 times as much.
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Old 11-25-2021, 01:00 AM   #161
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Originally Posted by Jack Klompus View Post
To be clear, the point of the arguments in the thread is that the OP, and others, continue to incorrectly portray both the current cost of Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries, as well as their functionality, and use it as a reason to question the decisions of people that use them.
So you're saying it's not acceptable to question the decisions of people that use LiFePo4 based on what you deem to be "incorrect" data (which others may or may not agree with) but it's apparently fine and dandy to question the decisions of people that use LA?
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Old 11-25-2021, 06:42 AM   #162
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Lithium Batteries are NOT Worth the Extra Cost?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uniblab View Post
There was no inaccurate information in my post. 100 amp-hour SLA batteries are commonly available for $50 each. That's $1 per useable amp-hour. A 100 amp-hour LiFePo4 battery is still $400 last I checked. That's $4 per useable amp-hour which is 4 times as much.

When you buy lifepo4 you donít have to get just get 100ah units because they are lighter and smaller and donít fail causing you to replace one.

So to make it easy

https://www.amazon.com/Lithium-LiFeP...dDbGljaz10cnVl

Thatís 200 ah for 700.00 x 2 is 1400.00 that is not 3-4 times LA and they provide a 5 year replacement warranty impossible to get with LA.

Please provide a link to the 50.00 LA golf cart batteryís I just sold mine to the scrap yard and got 30$ each so I donít know how new they are 50.00 new best price I found is 98.00.

Trojanís are 1200 for just 6.

https://www.golfcartgarage.com/6-vol...YaAkzjEALw_wcB
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Old 11-25-2021, 08:10 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by Biljol View Post
When you buy lifepo4 you donít have to get just get 100ah units because they are lighter and smaller and donít fail causing you to replace one.

So to make it easy

https://www.amazon.com/Lithium-LiFeP...dDbGljaz10cnVl

Thatís 200 ah for 700.00 x 2 is 1400.00 that is not 3-4 times LA and they provide a 5 year replacement warranty impossible to get with LA.

Please provide a link to the 50.00 LA golf cart batteryís I just sold mine to the scrap yard and got 30$ each so I donít know how new they are 50.00 new best price I found is 98.00.

Trojanís are 1200 for just 6.

https://www.golfcartgarage.com/6-vol...YaAkzjEALw_wcB

He said you can buy USED 100ah LA batteries for $50.

Of course you and I know what this means for the argument at hand.
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Old 11-25-2021, 08:17 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by Uniblab View Post
So you're saying it's not acceptable to question the decisions of people that use LiFePo4 based on what you deem to be "incorrect" data (which others may or may not agree with) but it's apparently fine and dandy to question the decisions of people that use LA?
You can question whatever you want.

I said clearly people should use LA batteries if they want.

You can continue to make your decision to use LA batteries based on buying used $50 batteries. Thats what I removed from my trailer to replace with a LifePO4.

Last time: when viewed over the lifetime of the products and comparing relative performance, Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries can be as affordable as Lead Acid. They are not 5 times as expensive unless you are building a comparison intended to show that. (Eg using used lead acid cost in the equation)
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Old 11-25-2021, 08:22 AM   #165
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This has sold me on Lithium. When I am due I will likely go this way, even with cost of new inverter since my 08 will probably not be the best choice.

https://www.mortonsonthemove.com/bes...-test-results/
Donít assume your converter or inverter are not compatible until you do some detailed research. I wonít apeak to yours specifically because I donít know your details of course.

For example, It is interesting that the battery management profile for a lot of very common converters is a fantastic fit for Lithium iron phosphate batteries despite them not being marketed as such. DIY solar is a great resource for battery information as well as solarÖ
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Old 11-25-2021, 08:53 AM   #166
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I went from two top tier Lifeline 220ah deep cycle 6v AGM's that where wearing out after 6 years to two 12v SOK LifePO4 206ah batteries in my Winnebago.

4 times the usable capacity in the same space with slightly less weight and at least 6 times the cycle life at about 3 time the cost. They hold voltage for nearly the entire charge cycle even under heavy load, basically no Peukert effect and charge at full blast from my Magnum right back to 100% 50+ amps per battery no taper absorb to speak of. I was able to run my 15k BTU AC for 3 hours vs about 30-45 minutes on the AGM's, simply amazing.

I tested a single battery pulling 130 amps continuous and charging 108 amps continuous no BMS shutdown, cells are rated 1C charge/discharge with 0.5C recommended charge rate.

These batteries completely outperform my old top tier lead acids in every way except maybe below zero charging and raw cold cranking amps, neither a concern for my use, will be interesting to see how they perform in the long term, most failures now days are related to the BMS vs the cells at least the SOK's are user serviceable and very robust build quality.

https://www.sokbattery.com/products/...e-battery-pack

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Old 11-25-2021, 10:52 AM   #167
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Note that I meant to write "This fellow did it with a 12V system", not a 120V system. Post is too old and I can't edit it now.

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What is the capacity of those panels? I do the numbers and if you have 1200w panels, you will not produce more than 800wats hrs for about 5 to 6 hrs depending position of the panels and time of the year, so best scenario 4,8 kwh or 3 hrs fully draining the batteries, I think that will not be enough to run the a/c, also you will need to put a soft starter in the a/c to be safe because after an hr or hr and a half running the system will not support the start consumption,
Please keep us posted in the progress of your system
At the time I posted I had speced different panels and a different layout; this is the current design:




Since then I have found these 440W panels that should fit:
440W 72Split-Cell Silver Mono Solar Panel by Solarever

I also found a solar tracker that looks affordable ($89 per panel):
Single Axis Complete Electronic Sunlight Track Solar Tracker Tracking System Kit

That specs out to 1760W (rated). With the solar tracker I hope to keep the 30% that's normally lost when panels lie flat.

Got the shelf for the compressor and spare tire fabricated in Salt Lake City:




(Also took the opportunity to add another axle to my overweight trailer, but that's another story.)

And I took delivery of the mini split. The company sold my (paid for) 9kW unit out from under me so I've got a 12kW unit now because they don't have any more of the 9kW units. Not happy about that because the minimal consumption may be higher. But, who knows, maybe it will work out better. This is all an experiment.

Next steps are:
• get a cage for the compressor fabricated
• install the 220V mini-split, the 48V battery, the new 48V/220V inverter and the 48V to 12V converter
• remove the old rooftop a/c, clearing the way for the solar panels
• install the solar panels

By my calculations, I should be able to run the ac during the heat of the day and still fill the battery—but not from a completely discharged state while run the ac unit. I just don't have enough roof area for more solar to do that. Still, running the generator a couple hours when boondocking to top off the battery thereby allowing me to get ac overnight is acceptable to me because the fully-charged battery should be enough for the overnight cycle (besides, I have no choice). I might even get away with not running the generator for 85% of my boondocking days since not every day will be a scorcher.

I wasn't thinking I would need a soft start but I could be wrong. If the panels aren't generating full power, I would need to dip into the battery to start the unit. That means a hybrid inverter that can pull current from the panels and the battery. Hmm.

I'm not planning on getting rid of the propane. For the really hot weeks, I'm not anticipating having enough power to run my fridge and ac unit on solar so I'll continue to use propane for those weeks. However, I'm planning on using any extra power from the solar panels to heat water.

In theory, I should be able to boondock for two weeks straight without starting the generator—most weeks of the year. My grey water tank fills up by then, anyway. Head back to town to empty the tanks, get more water, fill the propane tanks and get more food.

If it weren't for the Internet, I'm setting myself up to be quite the hermit. ;-)


P.S. Finally found a way to post pictures. Upload the image to Google Drive, share it and copy the link address, post the link into gdurl.com; use the link that service provides.
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Old 11-25-2021, 01:35 PM   #168
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OK, I will say it again. LifePO4 batteries CAN BE affordable. I said it.

This is fun.
X2. "Affordable" is actually quite a complex calculation with a lot more than numbers involved. For me LiFePO4 was easily affordable. I would have sold something if necessary to make the move to LiFePO4. RV'ing got a whole lot more fun after I went to LiFePO4 (though I went from flooded to LiFePO4 and that was probably a factor). Going solar was even more affordable. I probably would not own the RV today if I had not gone LiFePO4 and solar. That we dry camp and boon dock exclusively is surely a factor.
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