Lithium Batteries are NOT Worth the Extra Cost?

[MRUSA14]

To call LA batteries more affordable the Lithiums is like calling a tent more affordable than an RV. For sure it is cheaper, but which one suits your needs best, and is therefore a better buy?

[Jim_HiTek]

Very interesting thread. Thanks for going to the trouble of posting.

Also, could someone post the link to that mentioned Squirrel power source?

[LargeMarge]

Originally Posted by DeanSchw

This has sold me on Lithium. When I am due I will likely go this way, even with cost of new inverter since my 08 will probably not be the best choice.

https://www.mortonsonthemove.com/bes...-test-results/

.
You link to mortonsonthemove.
Are they paid shills and grifters?

[hclarkx]

Originally Posted by Nomadist

Note that I meant to write "This fellow did it with a 12V system", not a 120V system. Post is too old and I can't edit it now.



At the time I posted I had speced different panels and a different layout; this is the current design:




Since then I have found these 440W panels that should fit:
440W 72Split-Cell Silver Mono Solar Panel by Solarever

I also found a solar tracker that looks affordable ($89 per panel):
Single Axis Complete Electronic Sunlight Track Solar Tracker Tracking System Kit

That specs out to 1760W (rated). With the solar tracker I hope to keep the 30% that's normally lost when panels lie flat.

Got the shelf for the compressor and spare tire fabricated in Salt Lake City:




(Also took the opportunity to add another axle to my overweight trailer, but that's another story.)

And I took delivery of the mini split. The company sold my (paid for) 9kW unit out from under me so I've got a 12kW unit now because they don't have any more of the 9kW units. Not happy about that because the minimal consumption may be higher. But, who knows, maybe it will work out better. This is all an experiment.

Next steps are:
• get a cage for the compressor fabricated
• install the 220V mini-split, the 48V battery, the new 48V/220V inverter and the 48V to 12V converter
• remove the old rooftop a/c, clearing the way for the solar panels
• install the solar panels

By my calculations, I should be able to run the ac during the heat of the day and still fill the battery—but not from a completely discharged state while run the ac unit. I just don't have enough roof area for more solar to do that. Still, running the generator a couple hours when boondocking to top off the battery thereby allowing me to get ac overnight is acceptable to me because the fully-charged battery should be enough for the overnight cycle (besides, I have no choice). I might even get away with not running the generator for 85% of my boondocking days since not every day will be a scorcher.

I wasn't thinking I would need a soft start but I could be wrong. If the panels aren't generating full power, I would need to dip into the battery to start the unit. That means a hybrid inverter that can pull current from the panels and the battery. Hmm.

I'm not planning on getting rid of the propane. For the really hot weeks, I'm not anticipating having enough power to run my fridge and ac unit on solar so I'll continue to use propane for those weeks. However, I'm planning on using any extra power from the solar panels to heat water.

In theory, I should be able to boondock for two weeks straight without starting the generator—most weeks of the year. My grey water tank fills up by then, anyway. Head back to town to empty the tanks, get more water, fill the propane tanks and get more food.

If it weren't for the Internet, I'm setting myself up to be quite the hermit. ;-)


P.S. Finally found a way to post pictures. Upload the image to Google Drive, share it and copy the link address, post the link into gdurl.com; use the link that service provides.

Impressive task you have under way. It sounds like you've put the necessary engineering into it. My sun runs a Gree 9K mini split with 840 Ah of LiFePO4 and 2000W of panels on a 1993 Tiffen Allegro Bay DP.

I'd be interested in the process you went through to calculate power and energy usage and such.

One of the issues we ran into during planning of my son's system was how much energy the mini split would require. The rated power on the 9K Gree is 560W (it has an EER of 16.5). But maximum power is 1400W. After quite some deliberation, we determined that the 550W is under rated conditions, delivering 9K with 95F outside and 80F inside. So what's this 1400W maximum power? That's under conditions beyond the rated conditions. The unit has to work a lot harder and do so with much lower efficiency. Unfortunately, where and when my son camps, the 1400W is the more realistic number to use in battery and solar planning (plus inverter losses). Thankfully the highest cooling demand occurs in the afternoon when the solar has already topped off the battery and is still producing well.

My own mini split is collecting dust in the garage. We don't camp much when it's warm so it's been on the back burner (while the fifth wheel gets new axles and disc brakes). It's a C&H 9K 120V with EER of 15.5. Max power is 1100W. Assuming I'll eventually get to the mini split, I will have 2200W and 720 Ah of LiFePO4.

Your plans are set, but if you are interested and have Excel or similar, I have a rather detailed workbook (spreadsheet) that uses hourly solar and temperature data from PVWatts to simulate system operation for geographic locations you choose. It provides daily generator Ah production (if any) required to make it through the night when inclement weather limits solar production. It supports two mini split A/C units, electric fridge, propane heater motor, all based on the temperature and hours of use. Let me know if you'd like to play with it. Send me your email address via PM.

[cruizerEd]

[QUOTE=LargeMarge;5997346].
You link to mortonsonthemove.
Are they paid shills and grifters?[/QUOTE

Nailed it:
They take money to do reviews:
Link from their website to disclosure.

For better reviews checkout
DIY Solar Power with Will Prowse

[Uniblab]

Originally Posted by Biljol

That’s 200 ah for 700.00 x 2 is 1400.00 that is not 3-4 times LA and they provide a 5 year replacement warranty impossible to get with LA.

Please provide a link to the 50.00 LA golf cart battery’s I just sold mine to the scrap yard and got 30$ each so I don’t know how new they are 50.00 new best price I found is 98.00.

Here are a couple of links SIMILAR to the ones where I obtained my batteries (as pointed out by another poster, they are not new which was clearly stated in my original post, and also not golf cart batteries):

https://houston.craigslist.org/for/d...386822615.html

https://inlandempire.craigslist.org/...411911713.html

Ford trucks have factory AGM batteries, I am going to check these out next week:
https://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/pt...396341417.html

There are deals out there if you look. Not everyone wants to throw down $700 for new LiFePo4s when $1-$200 worth of AGM can meet their needs. And as you pointed out, these $50 batteries are easily recyclable for 30 cents per pound, which refunds a good portion of the cost back to you when you're done with them.

I have been camping with LA batteries for... over 35 years. Somehow, I managed to have lights, computers, music and hot coffee every morning without lithium batteries. Lead acid batteries MET MY NEEDS during this time. I am now using a giant LiFePo4 battery because I have aspirations for off-grid A/C and for that, it will be necessary. But not many people are interested in that and I'm disappointed to see those people repeatedly dog-piled on every time they suggest that they are just fine with their inexpensive, recyclable LA batteries. Give them a break already.

Incidentally, now that I'm done with them in my RV, I'm using my close-to ten-year-old $50 AGM UPS batteries in a home backup power application. 16 of them are running my critical loads subpanel in the event of a power outage. I just checked and they are 78 amp-hour batteries. 192v*78=15KWh. Even if you go by the 50% rule, that is a 7.5KWh battery pack. And if/when those batteries finally give up the ghost I will get $250 for them at the recycler. Even though I could afford it, I'm not willing to drop thousands on a lithium battery pack of that size... yet If/when the price drops another 50%, then I will probably do it but for now the LA batteries meet my needs. Their weight is irrelevant since they just sit in my garage. I may up my battery pack voltage with a few of those Ford truck batteries next week (cue the posts about how you can't series batteries of unequal size and age... sigh).

[corn18]

Originally Posted by Uniblab

Here are a couple of links SIMILAR to the ones where I obtained my batteries (as pointed out by another poster, they are not new which was clearly stated in my original post, and also not golf cart batteries):

https://houston.craigslist.org/for/d...386822615.html

https://inlandempire.craigslist.org/...411911713.html

Ford trucks have factory AGM batteries, I am going to check these out next week:
https://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/pt...396341417.html

There are deals out there if you look. Not everyone wants to throw down $700 for new LiFePo4s when $1-$200 worth of AGM can meet their needs. And as you pointed out, these $50 batteries are easily recyclable for 30 cents per pound, which refunds a good portion of the cost back to you when you're done with them.

I have been camping with LA batteries for... over 35 years. Somehow, I managed to have lights, computers, music and hot coffee every morning without lithium batteries. Lead acid batteries MET MY NEEDS during this time. I am now using a giant LiFePo4 battery because I have aspirations for off-grid A/C and for that, it will be necessary. But not many people are interested in that and I'm disappointed to see those people repeatedly dog-piled on every time they suggest that they are just fine with their inexpensive, recyclable LA batteries. Give them a break already.

Incidentally, now that I'm done with them in my RV, I'm using my close-to ten-year-old $50 AGM UPS batteries in a home backup power application. 16 of them are running my critical loads subpanel in the event of a power outage. I just checked and they are 78 amp-hour batteries. 192v*78=15KWh. Even if you go by the 50% rule, that is a 7.5KWh battery pack. And if/when those batteries finally give up the ghost I will get $250 for them at the recycler. Even though I could afford it, I'm not willing to drop thousands on a lithium battery pack of that size... yet If/when the price drops another 50%, then I will probably do it but for now the LA batteries meet my needs. Their weight is irrelevant since they just sit in my garage. I may up my battery pack voltage with a few of those Ford truck batteries next week (cue the posts about how you can't series batteries of unequal size and age... sigh).

I bet you used a lot of engines with carburetors as well. And tube TVs. And, and, and...

Makes me giggle how hard the FLA crowd tries.

[followingsea]

Originally Posted by corn18

I bet you used a lot of engines with carburetors as well. And tube TVs. And, and, and...

Makes me giggle how hard the FLA crowd tries.

Biggest TV I have owned is in the cost $100 and uses 30 watts. Perfect for the MH and lightweight. Lots cheaper and lower the energy use.

The reason I have no experience with not better and awful expensive LED TV is the CRT kept working.

Did make a mistake. Did not see the market for used CRT and DVR coming.

"Your Grandma’s Tube TV Is the Hottest Gaming Tech"

Apparently that old TV is selling for $9369.

[hclarkx]

Originally Posted by RvNaut

Ok.. here is a scenario for you. I plan to boondock. My basic starter config will be running everything in the rig, without the need for a generator running or shore power. My power demand is such that I would need 3 times as much space and 4 times the weight to have enough LA batteries to support the load. Lithiums will last longer than I will, will take up less space and less weight and require zero maintenance. If all you are doing is keep the fridge running between RV parks, LA is fine, you don't need lithium.. if you want to boondock for weeks at a time and hold a lot of usable power Lithium is a much better choice. My initial battery bank will be around 14000 usable watt hours, supported by 2200 watts of solar, and a back up sine wave 2500 watt gasoline generator.

I am replacing the roof AC with a mini split, deleting it and the Furnace, Also deleting the Onan 4000 and eventually the massive LP tank..

LA would not be practical in this situation. I can build a 24v lithium battery for this setup for a bit under $3k, how many LA batteries would it take to give me 14000 wh? .. short answer = a 28000w LA battery bank.

X2! Our ultralite fifth wheel could never carry the LA necessary to do what we do now which includes providing about 90 Ah each night (CPAP, 12V fridge, etc.) over several days of inclement weather let alone power the mini-split (that is still in the garage). LA would probably cause separation between the bedroom and living area.

[Jack Klompus]

Originally Posted by Jim_HiTek

Very interesting thread. Thanks for going to the trouble of posting.

Also, could someone post the link to that mentioned Squirrel power source?

Very hard to get reliable documentation on that one.

[Jack Klompus]

[QUOTE=cruizerEd;5997620]

Originally Posted by LargeMarge

.
You link to mortonsonthemove.
Are they paid shills and grifters?[/QUOTE

Nailed it:
They take money to do reviews:
Link from their website to disclosure.

For better reviews checkout
DIY Solar Power with Will Prowse

Yes. I would again certainly recommend people who want detailed and unbiased information about batteries of all types check out all of the DIY solar resources available on the internet.

[DeanSchw]

Originally Posted by LargeMarge

.
You link to mortonsonthemove.
Are they paid shills and grifters?

I have no idea but the video was informative. If you don't like them, don't watch.

[Bylandorsea]

Originally Posted by MRUSA14

To call LA batteries more affordable the Lithiums is like calling a tent more affordable than an RV. For sure it is cheaper, but which one suits your needs best, and is therefore a better buy?

LA batteries = tent $

Li Batteries = pop-up camper a little better than tent a bad choice in the cold not too heavy you can pull with a small SUV $$$

SiO2 Silicon Dioxide Batteries = 45 foot DP motor home heavy and good at any temp we may RV but $$$$

SiO2 Silicon Dioxide Batteries can be direct replacement for LA batteries where Li causes problems like killing alternators and shutting down in the cold
SiO2 Silicon Dioxide Batteries have an unique chemistry. The non-corrosive electrolyte in SiO2 batteries forms crystalline salts when charged/discharged. SiO2 batteries use 95% less sulphuric acid than Lead Acid batteries. They are essentially a "dry-cell" battery with no liquid to freeze, spill or off-gas. Eliminating most of the acid, means that the lead plates last longer and weigh less. Sulphation does not build-up and reduce capacity over time. With the crystalline structure, they can also be used in any orientation.

SiO2 charge as fast as lithium to 90% and easily top off to 100%.

Operation Temperature: Trojan is -4°F to 113°F (-20°C to +45°C), at temperatures below 32°F (0°C) maintain a state of charge greater than 60% (not 50%). SiO2 is -40°F to 149°F (-40°C to +65°C), SiO2 is fully usable in the temperature range. For winter RVing or cold weather RVing the SiO2 has a much larger temperature operating range.

[corn18]

Originally Posted by Bylandorsea

LA batteries = tent $

Li Batteries = pop-up camper a little better than tent a bad choice in the cold not too heavy you can pull with a small SUV $$$

SiO2 Silicon Dioxide Batteries = 45 foot DP motor home heavy and good at any temp we may RV but $$$$

SiO2 Silicon Dioxide Batteries can be direct replacement for LA batteries where Li causes problems like killing alternators and shutting down in the cold
SiO2 Silicon Dioxide Batteries have an unique chemistry. The non-corrosive electrolyte in SiO2 batteries forms crystalline salts when charged/discharged. SiO2 batteries use 95% less sulphuric acid than Lead Acid batteries. They are essentially a "dry-cell" battery with no liquid to freeze, spill or off-gas. Eliminating most of the acid, means that the lead plates last longer and weigh less. Sulphation does not build-up and reduce capacity over time. With the crystalline structure, they can also be used in any orientation.

SiO2 charge as fast as lithium to 90% and easily top off to 100%.

Operation Temperature: Trojan is -4°F to 113°F (-20°C to +45°C), at temperatures below 32°F (0°C) maintain a state of charge greater than 60% (not 50%). SiO2 is -40°F to 149°F (-40°C to +65°C), SiO2 is fully usable in the temperature range. For winter RVing or cold weather RVing the SiO2 has a much larger temperature operating range.

Methinks you're overselling the Lead crystal batteries. Better than FLA or AGM. Don't take them down to 0% DOD unless you want to buy new ones.



If I were camping in the cold, I would just put LiFePO4 batteries in the camper where it is heated. Unless you keep the inside of your camper @ -40C.