Lithium Batteries are NOT Worth the Extra Cost?

[Bylandorsea]

Corn18 I see you have your batteries listed in your signature, so I assume you are proud of your Li batteries, and as well you should be. Sorry I was coming from a MH point of view and I did not point out that if you camp in a 5th wheel or tow behind and or use them in your home where the batteries can live inside with you, Li works. Li shines when you have limited space or weight can be a factor. They are one of a very few options if you are forced to have your batteries in your living space. 5th wheel and or tow behinds usually don’t come equipped with generators with 150 gal fuel tank that can run everything for a week or longer. The up/down side is they force you to find your own solution to off grid power, solar, wind and or generator.
In a MH we have starting batteries and house (inverter) batteries engineered by the manufacture all located in compartments exposed to the elements and all charged by the alternator on the engine. Li batteries don’t play well with both. They can’t stand the cold and they will kill your alternatorand or the built in generator. Yes we can relocate your batteries to a heated area and use a DC to DC charger to work around the problems of Li batteries that keep them from being a drop in replacement for the LA flooded or AMG batteries that our coaches were designed around. Today the only drop in replacement that can stand the cold not destroy our alternators yet will allow a deeper discharge and have an extended life cycle at a discharge depth of 80% areSiO2 Silicon Dioxide Batteries .
When it comes to money (cost) the 'affordable’ term describes your ability to pay not a property of the battery. Some tent camp and have a few thousand in our camping equipment. At the other extreme are the million dollar plus coaches that others choose. Any one camping in a rig that cost $100K and up can afford whatever battery floats their boat. If it makes economic sense depends on how deep your pockets are. They can spend extra to re-cable and abandon the battery tray, moving batteries into living /storage space. It is your hard earned money. No one battery fits all uses, but SiO2 Silicon Dioxide Batteries are a direct replacement for LA batteries, Li is not. Take out your 6V LA then drop in SiO2 Silicon Dioxide Batteries go to your inverter control and change the settings for a deeper discharge and GO CAMPING.

[followingsea]

Originally Posted by Bylandorsea

.... If it makes economic sense depends on how deep your pockets are. ......

I would agree if you said how we choose to do things depends on how deep your pockets are.

From the discussion and your tag line, we both enjoy camping boating. My atomic 4 uses 5 gallons and a 4 quart oil change a year.

If I had Bill Gates pocket, I would be doing the same thing.

I have been buying batteries for my boat for 30 years. After research, I go Walmart and get a marine battery because that makes economic sense. If I was doing open ocean I would be getting a much more expense battery. It would be a safety thing.

No I am not going to pay more for a different color case.

I did spend a lot of money this year enhancing enjoyment of life. I bought a new sail. Yes I paid more for a blue stripe. I also did the non-skid in a different color.

Some things increase enjoyment but a more expensive battery is not one of them.

Next year I will be dry camping less. I invested in making my lot in Ocean Shores more enjoyable. It is an investment because I expect it will make more valuable. In this case, deep pockets allowed a choice that made economic sense.

[jharrell]

Originally Posted by Bylandorsea

In a MH we have starting batteries and house (inverter) batteries engineered by the manufacture all located in compartments exposed to the elements and all charged by the alternator on the engine. Li batteries don’t play well with both. They can’t stand the cold and they will kill your alternatorand or the built in generator.

My alternator and generator have no issue charging my LFP batteries, if I was charging from a low DoD I would probably run my generator and charge at 125 amps from my inverter but my 175 amp alternator has no issue charging at 100+ amps. There is a video making the rounds trying to show lithiums burning up an alternator, it was a small one and was under pulleyed so it wasn't running at even normal idle rpm which led to lack of airflow. The alternator issue is overblown IMO.

The batteries don't have any issue discharging in the cold, you lose capacity just like lead in the cold in the end you still get more out of them vs lead at same temps, they cannot be charged below freezing true it will damage them, which is why all the decent ones have cold temp charge disconnect, if you need to charge below freezing then you will need to heat them to above freezing, many people use heating pads, some batteries have heaters built in.

[Bylandorsea]

Originally Posted by jharrell

My alternator and generator have no issue charging my LFP batteries, if I was charging from a low DoD I would probably run my generator and charge at 125 amps from my inverter but my 175 amp alternator has no issue charging at 100+ amps. There is a video making the rounds trying to show lithiums burning up an alternator, it was a small one and was under pulleyed so it wasn't running at even normal idle rpm which led to lack of airflow. The alternator issue is overblown IMO.

The batteries don't have any issue discharging in the cold, you lose capacity just like lead in the cold in the end you still get more out of them vs lead at same temps, they cannot be charged below freezing true it will damage them, which is why all the decent ones have cold temp charge disconnect, if you need to charge below freezing then you will need to heat them to above freezing, many people use heating pads, some batteries have heaters built in.

I agree, all of the battery types can be charged by running the generator except Li when they are cold, they can be saved by a low temp cut out but cant be charged until warm. I can just imagine the phone conversation with my wife "you have to turn on the heating pads to warm the batteries". For some the requirement of heating pads for Li batteries makes them less green as they cannot be charged by solar or wind in cold conditions making them carbon hogs. Good luck with your Li batteries and I hope your alternator holds up.

[jharrell]

Originally Posted by Bylandorsea

For some the requirement of heating pads for Li batteries makes them less green as they cannot be charged by solar or wind in cold conditions making them carbon hogs.

The battery heat pads / heaters are 12v and run off charging current until battery goes above freezing then normal charging starts which also heats the battery keeping above freezing, this typically all automated with a thermostat nobody needs to manually do anything and the heater will obviously run off solar or wind.

If you are regularly camping where your batteries will get below 32F then yes perhaps lead acid might be preferable for now or spend extra on heated lithiums, for me I can't remember the last time my batteries hit 32F even under the steps somewhat open to the elements they are always 10F above ambient and I tend to avoid camping in 22F temps if I can help it since I also have to start worrying about my wet bay freezing up as well, also I am usually not running off battery in those temps, so lack of below freezing charging is not really an issue for me.

[Bylandorsea]

Originally Posted by followingsea

I would agree if you said how we choose to do things depends on how deep your pockets are.

From the discussion and your tag line, we both enjoy camping boating. My atomic 4 uses 5 gallons and a 4 quart oil change a year.

If I had Bill Gates pocket, I would be doing the same thing.

I have been buying batteries for my boat for 30 years. After research, I go Walmart and get a marine battery because that makes economic sense. If I was doing open ocean I would be getting a much more expense battery. It would be a safety thing.

No I am not going to pay more for a different color case.

I did spend a lot of money this year enhancing enjoyment of life. I bought a new sail. Yes I paid more for a blue stripe. I also did the non-skid in a different color.

Some things increase enjoyment but a more expensive battery is not one of them.

Next year I will be dry camping less. I invested in making my lot in Ocean Shores more enjoyable. It is an investment because I expect it will make more valuable. In this case, deep pockets allowed a choice that made economic sense.

I agree could have been worded better. For me I tent camped until I could afford a better camper and yes even now when hiking I still use a tent not by choice but by necessity.

Would you agree when it comes to money (cost) the 'affordable’ term describes your ability to pay not a property of the battery.

I also see by your answer you are a sail boater. We are seeing older sail boaters moving to trawlers in order to keep boating into older age.

[paul65k]

The amount of mis-information and "Old Wives tales" being touted as actual fact is strong in this thread (said in my best Yoda voice).

If anyone is really interested in the facts....look for another source and especially one without "I can't understand why anyone....." and more like "My actual experience is...."

[Isaac-1]

As a person that just upgraded to LiFePo4, here is my take:


1, Over the expected lifespan of the battery, LiFePo4 is now at price parity or cheaper than lead acid, ie LiFePo4 has dropped price and lead acid has went up in price to where LiFePo4 costs 3-5 times as much, but last 3-5 times as long as lead acid.


2, LiFePo4 is a semi-drop in replacement for lead acid, though each has its own distinctive traits, and require different type of care. In my case due to LiFePo4 not liking cold weather I moved my battery bank inside the coach into a kitchen cabinet, instead of being mounted exposed to the elements under the entry steps. I also rewired my generator so it no longer starts off the house battery bank.


3, Compare apples to apples as best you can, don't compare standard lead acid to premium LiFePo4 batteries with smart bluetooth BMS management systems that keep track of state of charge, cycle life, and has dozens of custom tunable settings, then complain about how much more LiFePo4 costs. If you are going to try to make such comparisons, then compare Lead Acid to basic entry level LiFePo4 when it comes to comparing price / performance.


4, compare useful capacities, this can be hard since LiFePo4 can be discharged down to the 20% charge level and still maintain 5,000+ charge cycles, and down to 0% and maintain perhaps 2,000 charge cycles, vs lead acid which gets perhaps 500 charge cycles at 50% depth of discharge and perhaps 200 if discharged down to 20% charge level


Many people use the rule of thumb that equates a 100Ah LifePo4 with a 200 Ah lead acid, I don't think this is fair to the lead acid, as in an emergency you can always dip into that bottom 50% at the expense of shortening service life. I think a more fair comparison would say 120-150Ah of LiFePo4 is equal a 200-225 Ah lead acid in terms of real world comparison, since the bottom part of that lead acid capacity often has voltage dropping off enough that it will no longer run a propane furnace blower, or an inverter.


As to where we are on pricing at the moment, one can buy a pair of 6V 215AH GC2 deep cycle lead acid golf cart batteries for $200-$300 with the low end being at Costco / Sams and high end being NAPA, etc (don't forget to add in core charges, disposal fees, etc.). warranty ranges from 6 months to 36 months, though longer warranty is usually prorated, full replacement warranty is often 12-18 months or less.


By contrast the cheapest generic 100Ah LiFePo4 batteries on the market at the moment are in the $300-$325 range and come with a 1-3 year full warranty. Realistically putting LiFePo4 now in the 2-3 times the price of lead acid ballpark.

[Tskadberg]

Originally Posted by Isaac-1

As a person that just upgraded to LiFePo4, here is my take:


1, Over the expected lifespan of the battery, LiFePo4 is now at price parity or cheaper than lead acid, ie LiFePo4 has dropped price and lead acid has went up in price to where LiFePo4 costs 3-5 times as much, but last 3-5 times as long as lead acid.


2, LiFePo4 is a semi-drop in replacement for lead acid, though each has its own distinctive traits, and require different type of care. In my case due to LiFePo4 not liking cold weather I moved my battery bank inside the coach into a kitchen cabinet, instead of being mounted exposed to the elements under the entry steps. I also rewired my generator so it no longer starts off the house battery bank.


3, Compare apples to apples as best you can, don't compare standard lead acid to premium LiFePo4 batteries with smart bluetooth BMS management systems that keep track of state of charge, cycle life, and has dozens of custom tunable settings, then complain about how much more LiFePo4 costs. If you are going to try to make such comparisons, then compare Lead Acid to basic entry level LiFePo4 when it comes to comparing price / performance.


4, compare useful capacities, this can be hard since LiFePo4 can be discharged down to the 20% charge level and still maintain 5,000+ charge cycles, and down to 0% and maintain perhaps 2,000 charge cycles, vs lead acid which gets perhaps 500 charge cycles at 50% depth of discharge and perhaps 200 if discharged down to 20% charge level


Many people use the rule of thumb that equates a 100Ah LifePo4 with a 200 Ah lead acid, I don't think this is fair to the lead acid, as in an emergency you can always dip into that bottom 50% at the expense of shortening service life. I think a more fair comparison would say 120-150Ah of LiFePo4 is equal a 200-225 Ah lead acid in terms of real world comparison, since the bottom part of that lead acid capacity often has voltage dropping off enough that it will no longer run a propane furnace blower, or an inverter.


As to where we are on pricing at the moment, one can buy a pair of 6V 215AH GC2 deep cycle lead acid golf cart batteries for $200-$300 with the low end being at Costco / Sams and high end being NAPA, etc (don't forget to add in core charges, disposal fees, etc.). warranty ranges from 6 months to 36 months, though longer warranty is usually prorated, full replacement warranty is often 12-18 months or less.


By contrast the cheapest generic 100Ah LiFePo4 batteries on the market at the moment are in the $300-$325 range and come with a 1-3 year full warranty. Realistically putting LiFePo4 now in the 2-3 times the price of lead acid ballpark.

This math makes sense if you never pull more than 5 amps ie 60 watts off a 12 volt.

My fridge pulls 8.6 and when the defrost kicks in then it pulls 30amps. At 10amps a 100Amh battery becomes a 87Amh battery. At 15 amps 71Amh. See Peukert's law.

There is no way to calculate the capacity when a lead acid battery is cold. But I know from driving our golf cart in the winter in sub freezing temps it has a big impact. My real world experience with a residential fridge on an inverter (which pulls 1.6 amps in standby) reliably lasted 6 hours on 200Amp of FLA with 100Amh of lithium I can count on 24 hours. Mind you I kept my lights and water pump on the FLA. So not a real comparison.

[Mark_K5LXP]

Compare apples to apples as best you can,

Which is totally fair, but then you don't compare apples to apples.

LiFePo4 can be discharged down to the 20% charge level and still maintain 5,000+ charge cycles

But at what remaining capacity? Just like lead acid, LFP suffers capacity degradation over the range of cycles and depth of discharge. "Better" than lead acid by a long shot but not without a consequence.

Many people use the rule of thumb that equates a 100Ah LifePo4 with a 200 Ah lead acid, I don't think this is fair to the lead acid, as in an emergency you can always dip into that bottom 50% at the expense of shortening service life.

To really be "fair" stop saying that discharging lead acid shortens service life - this is no more true for lead acid as it is LFP. Discharging lead acid to 20% SOC is within the manufacturer specified and real life operating range of lead acid batteries.

the bottom part of that lead acid capacity often has voltage dropping off enough that it will no longer run a propane furnace blower, or an inverter.

That's not a battery problem, that's an equipment problem. One may accommodate equipment operating voltage by limiting battery discharge but that's not the battery's fault. All of the equipment in my RV is specified to, and operates fine, over the entire voltage range of lead acid so any properly engineered system shouldn't need this accommodation.

No argument that LFP may be nearing or at cost parity with lead for some situations and no denying the performance advantage. But lying about the performance of lead to make LFP look better doesn't help the argument for LFP. Let the facts and data stand for themselves.

Mark B.
Albuquerque, NM

[corn18]

Originally Posted by Mark_K5LXP

To really be "fair" stop saying that discharging lead acid shortens service life - this is no more true for lead acid as it is LFP. Discharging lead acid to 20% SOC is within the manufacturer specified and real life operating range of lead acid batteries.



Mark B.
Albuquerque, NM

I have been arguing with you on this point, but I had an aha moment. If you look at the data for FLA life cycles vs. DOD, it is very linear from about 30% DOD to 100% DOD. I wish I had comprehended what that meant before today. That means you are correct. 50% DOD seems to be a myth. There is no harm going to 80% DOD. Wow. Maybe if I listened better I would understand your point (said every wife, ever).

[Bylandorsea]

Originally Posted by Isaac-1

As a person that just upgraded to LiFePo4, here is my take:


1, Over the expected lifespan of the battery, LiFePo4 is now at price parity or cheaper than lead acid, ie LiFePo4 has dropped price and lead acid has went up in price to where LiFePo4 costs 3-5 times as much, but last 3-5 times as long as lead acid.


2, LiFePo4 is a semi-drop in replacement for lead acid, though each has its own distinctive traits, and require different type of care. In my case due to LiFePo4 not liking cold weather I moved my battery bank inside the coach into a kitchen cabinet, instead of being mounted exposed to the elements under the entry steps. I also rewired my generator so it no longer starts off the house battery bank.


3, Compare apples to apples as best you can, don't compare standard lead acid to premium LiFePo4 batteries with smart bluetooth BMS management systems that keep track of state of charge, cycle life, and has dozens of custom tunable settings, then complain about how much more LiFePo4 costs. If you are going to try to make such comparisons, then compare Lead Acid to basic entry level LiFePo4 when it comes to comparing price / performance.


4, compare useful capacities, this can be hard since LiFePo4 can be discharged down to the 20% charge level and still maintain 5,000+ charge cycles, and down to 0% and maintain perhaps 2,000 charge cycles, vs lead acid which gets perhaps 500 charge cycles at 50% depth of discharge and perhaps 200 if discharged down to 20% charge level


Many people use the rule of thumb that equates a 100Ah LifePo4 with a 200 Ah lead acid, I don't think this is fair to the lead acid, as in an emergency you can always dip into that bottom 50% at the expense of shortening service life. I think a more fair comparison would say 120-150Ah of LiFePo4 is equal a 200-225 Ah lead acid in terms of real world comparison, since the bottom part of that lead acid capacity often has voltage dropping off enough that it will no longer run a propane furnace blower, or an inverter.


As to where we are on pricing at the moment, one can buy a pair of 6V 215AH GC2 deep cycle lead acid golf cart batteries for $200-$300 with the low end being at Costco / Sams and high end being NAPA, etc (don't forget to add in core charges, disposal fees, etc.). warranty ranges from 6 months to 36 months, though longer warranty is usually prorated, full replacement warranty is often 12-18 months or less.


By contrast the cheapest generic 100Ah LiFePo4 batteries on the market at the moment are in the $300-$325 range and come with a 1-3 year full warranty. Realistically putting LiFePo4 now in the 2-3 times the price of lead acid ballpark.

Well said! I agree, but will add this. You may not agree, just my take on 100Ah LiFePo4 batteries at this time.

"Many people use the rule of thumb that equates a 100Ah LifePo4 with a 200 Ah lead acid, I don't think this is fair to the lead acid, as in an emergency you can always dip into that bottom 50% at the expense of shortening service life. I think a more fair comparison would say 120-150Ah of LiFePo4 is equal a 200-225 Ah lead acid in terms of real world comparison, since the bottom part of that lead acid capacity often has voltage dropping off enough that it will no longer run a propane furnace blower, or an inverter."
I think you are spot on as to use.

"As to where we are on pricing at the moment, one can buy a pair of 6V 215AH GC2 deep cycle lead acid golf cart batteries for $200-$300 with the low end being at Costco / Sams and high end being NAPA, etc (don't forget to add in core charges, disposal fees, etc.). warranty ranges from 6 months to 36 months, though longer warranty is usually prorated, full replacement warranty is often 12-18 months or less."

True at Sam,s Club today Duracell Golf Car Battery, Group Size GC2 $89.88 X 2 = $180

"By contrast the cheapest generic 100Ah LiFePo4 batteries on the market at the moment are in the $300-$325 range and come with a 1-3 year full warranty. Realistically putting LiFePo4 now in the 2-3 times the price of lead acid ballpark."

At $300 for 100Ah LiFePo4 batteries you will get rebranded generic made in China batteries that may or may not have a good BMS. For a good assembled in North America (or Europe) battery like a Battle Born $799.00 with a warranty you can count on like the warranty on a 6V 215AH GC2 deep cycle lead acid golf cart batteries from a major brand.
So If we compare major brands today two 6V 215AH GC2 deep cycle lead acid are $180 and one major brands 100Ah LiFePo4 battery id $800 about 4 times the price.

I still question comparing the cheapest generic 100Ah LiFePo4 batteries on the market with questionable warranty’s and BMS’s to major brands today to 6V 215AH GC2 deep cycle lead acid. The cheep rebranded generic made in China 100Ah LiFePo4 batteries may compare better to the factory blems 6V 215AH GC2 deep cycle lead acid golf cart batteries which I have purchased for as little as $40 each when I purchased 14 to as high as $55 each when I need two (no warranty)

[corn18]

You can't fit 412 Ah of usable FLA in this spot. And it only weighs 96 lbs. That's why I went LiFePO4.

[jharrell]

Originally Posted by Mark_K5LXP

But at what remaining capacity? Just like lead acid, LFP suffers capacity degradation over the range of cycles and depth of discharge. "Better" than lead acid by a long shot but not without a consequence.

Cycle life ratings are typically at 80% capacity for both lead and LFP here is my SOK vs my old Lifelines and typical LFP's and Lead golf cart batteries, notice how LFP are done typically at 1C charge/discharge while lead is normally .05C 20 hour rate:

SOK 100% DOD:



Lifeline deep cycle AGM:



Generic LFP:



Generic golf cart lead:

Originally Posted by Mark_K5LXP

To really be "fair" stop saying that discharging lead acid shortens service life - this is no more true for lead acid as it is LFP. Discharging lead acid to 20% SOC is within the manufacturer specified and real life operating range of lead acid batteries.

The difference is if you run a deep cycle lead down to 20% SOC daily at the 20 hour rate it might last 2 years while while a LFP will last 14 years. To put it another way you can cycle an LFP to zero at full 1C discharge and get similar cycle to a lead only cycled to 80% at just 0.05C.

At 0% its a 6X difference in cycle life
At 20% - 7X
At 50% - 20X

The true cost of ownership even for a single expensive Battleborn is pretty close to two cheap SAM's club lead acid if you run the BB down to 0% and the GC batteries down to 50% of over the life time of the batteries but if you do 2 Battleborns to 50% at 8x the cost vs 2 GC's you get 20X the life and you can see how LFP just pulls away from lead. SOK's are nearly half the cost of Battleborns and LFP's are still dropping in price, there are ones coming on the market at 29c per Wh the economics can't be denied forever.