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Old 11-30-2021, 05:11 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by jharrell View Post
You're obviously not cycling very often to get 8 years, 4 years is a couple full cycles per week for a perfectly maintained lead battery. When was the last time you did a full capacity test on your 8 year old bank? I would be surprised if it had 80% of its original capacity left which is what we are talking about with cycle life, my Lifeline AGM's had probably 50% capacity at 6 years and only at low draws, they could no longer stay above disconnect voltage at high draws. LFP's don't just stop working at the end of their cycle rating just like lead, they just keep losing capacity albeit much more slowly than lead and keep a much lower internal resistance.

Good deep cycle AGM's aren't sub $100 batteries either, my Lifeline AGM where $350 batteries, you could probably get a much smaller AH capacity LFP bank for less money than the AGM's and have similar capacity and better life at this point. I quadrupled my capacity in the same space for about three time the cost and should not have to buy another house battery for this RV ever and neither should the next owner.



Its not unsubstantiated there have been studies done but of lot of it is modeling since they haven't been in widespread use for 20 years and the ones that are out there seem to just keep going and going, there is already a secondary used LFP market, note this is comparing to ultra long life OPzS lead batteries:

https://www.proquest.com/docview/2483958114
Thanks for the advice but I'll stick with my AGMs as they work for my use. Will likely replace with AGMs when needed as they havecserved me well. Lots of different needs and solutions and nothing against those that boondoock often and they work for them... just not for me. I won't be here in 20 yrs so not too concerned about 20 yr payback.
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Old 11-30-2021, 06:14 PM   #212
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My boat AGMs have finished 8 yrs and still going strong. Owners are not maintaining g them if they die at 4 yrs.
But that’s the main point of lithium we don’t want to maintain them we have better things to do than worrying about battery maintenance.

I was referring to alarm system and ups battery’s we have no control over any “maintenance” you plug the battery into the device and it does the rest. We don’t have time to pay an employee to go to 100’s of clients to replace a 9$ battery every 4 years when I can install a 20$ lithium and never send someone again. Economic sense it man hours is the most expensive cost you have.

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I won't be here in 20 yrs so not too concerned about 20 yr payback.
And maybe that’s the difference I will be around in 20 years most likely 40 and I don’t want to have to fiddle with battery’s for 40 years.
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Old 11-30-2021, 06:32 PM   #213
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This time horizon reminds me of a conversation on Thanksgiving regarding my former next door neighbor. After spending a night at his daughters house during a power outage where there is a whole house standby generator, he made a comment about how he would invest in one of those for his house, if he expected to live for another 10 years, he is 93 (maybe 94 now), he still lives semi independently (his youngest daughter lives just a couple of houses away down the street), his wife passed away about 10 months ago.
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Old 12-01-2021, 05:34 AM   #214
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But that’s the main point of lithium we don’t want to maintain them we have better things to do than worrying about battery maintenance.

I was referring to alarm system and ups battery’s we have no control over any “maintenance” you plug the battery into the device and it does the rest. We don’t have time to pay an employee to go to 100’s of clients to replace a 9$ battery every 4 years when I can install a 20$ lithium and never send someone again. Economic sense it man hours is the most expensive cost you have.



And maybe that’s the difference I will be around in 20 years most likely 40 and I don’t want to have to fiddle with battery’s for 40 years.
I can't imagine the charger for those $9 battys is anywhere near a modern smart charger. I have computer room UPS battys I have kept on good maintainers for 10 years before putting them back into service aboard my / friends boats. I still have one serving my boat gen and it works fine... and it probably 15 yrs old. I know thats an outlier but my point is take proper care of battys and they take care of you.
No problem w LFP for others they just aren't worth it to me. Also... poor charging practices will shorten their life from what I'm reading. They are not the same as lead as far as charging and do need some special considerations. I'm reading they do not like long term storage at 100% SOC and some charger/ controllers will account for that letting them run down to 70% before charging and no typical float above that.
Only going by what I read but the msg I'm getting is if you switch one needs to consider the whole system vs a plug. & play swap.
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Old 12-01-2021, 06:04 AM   #215
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No problem w LFP for others they just aren't worth it to me. Also... poor charging practices will shorten their life from what I'm reading. They are not the same as lead as far as charging and do need some special considerations. I'm reading they do not like long term storage at 100% SOC and some charger/ controllers will account for that letting them run down to 70% before charging and no typical float above that.
Only going by what I read but the msg I'm getting is if you switch one needs to consider the whole system vs a plug. & play swap.
13.6 float, 14.4 absorb 1/2 hour per 100ah they will outlast any lead by a wide margin. Floating is not an issue. Most chargers can do the above, doesn't even really need an absorb, a dumb converter that charges to 13.6 would be fine just won't get a full charge which is fine with LFP.

LFP don't need float like lead, but they have no problem floating in order to prevent discharge from loads which you typically have with an RV unless you disconnect batteries.

Poor charging practices ruin a lead much faster, happens all the time, LFP have a BMS that protects the battery from really bad things like letting go to true zero SOC or overcharging, lead doesn't.

Lots of misconceptions about Lithium-Iron that come from more sensitive chemistries like Lithium-Nickel-Manganese-Cobalt-Oxide that have a higher cell voltages, thats where most of the issues come from with floating and storing at 100%, if you want good info a reputable source here a great interview with the Battleborn CEO where he talks about storage and float, this is what he says about float:

https://youtu.be/ywn-vBjKblI?t=857
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Old 12-01-2021, 06:50 AM   #216
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I can't imagine the charger for those $9 battys is anywhere near a modern smart charger. I have computer room UPS battys I have kept on good maintainers for 10 years before putting them back into service aboard my / friends boats. I still have one serving my boat gen and it works fine... and it probably 15 yrs old. I know thats an outlier but my point is take proper care of battys and they take care of you.
No problem w LFP for others they just aren't worth it to me. Also... poor charging practices will shorten their life from what I'm reading. They are not the same as lead as far as charging and do need some special considerations. I'm reading they do not like long term storage at 100% SOC and some charger/ controllers will account for that letting them run down to 70% before charging and no typical float above that.
Only going by what I read but the msg I'm getting is if you switch one needs to consider the whole system vs a plug. & play swap.
I don't own LiFePO4 but I heard.....

Kindof like a politician. I'm not saying that she did this awful thing, but if she did, we would have to investigate and prosecute her.
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Old 12-01-2021, 07:15 AM   #217
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Everyone has a back story that influences their choices. In 2013 I installed a 2800 watt pure sign inverter/ charger and 14 6V deep cycle lead acid golf cart batteries in my boat. It was to provide AC power to my refrigerator, standalone ice maker, the 110V outlets, 6TV’s ,4 Direct TV boxes ,ETC. The batteries are charged by the inverter charger from 3 sources, the alternators on the main engines, the 13.5 KV generator or the 50amp shore power when at the dock. The main reason the battery bank is so large is that I installed an additional 5000BTU water source heat and air unit in the master state room which my goal was to run over night allowing me to shut down my 13.5 KV. In 2013 Li batteries were way expensive and considered dangerous on a boat. So I went with 14 factory blems 6V lead acid golf cart batteries at $40 each.
My family had a rural 9 hole golf course and I have plenty of experience with 6V La flooded batteries. We survived by purchasing new blems from a factory that made batteries for several brands. When replacing a full set in a cart we would try if possible to use the same color case (brand as a defect to the case is what makes them blems). But all too often the carts got a blend of different battery brands from the factory. When a cart was not staying charged as it should considering the age of the batteries, we would test to see if one was bad. If a single battery went bad at say 9 to 12 months of age after being placed it service we would replace it with a take-out battery with the closest in service age from our storage of used batteries. If we put a new battery in a cart with older batteries they would suck the life from the new one effectively shorting its life.
Now back to the RV and replacing my good 6V lead acid golf cart batteries with LiFePo4 batteries. My 6V lead acid golf cart battery bank in my boat installed in Feb 2013 will still run my master ac for 11 hours plus after 7 plus years. My RV batteries are 2019’s they are in a tray exposed to the weather yet I expect them to last another 5 years or so. In 5 years the price of SiO2 Silicon Dioxide Batteries may drop to a point to warrant a change to them. SiO2 Silicon Dioxide Batteries have an unique chemistry. The non-corrosive electrolyte in SiO2 batteries forms crystalline salts when charged/discharged. SiO2 batteries use 95% less sulphuric acid than Lead Acid batteries. They are essentially a "dry-cell" battery with no liquid to freeze, spill or off-gas. Eliminating most of the acid, means that the lead plates last longer and weigh less. Sulphation does not build-up and reduce capacity over time. With the crystalline structure, they can also be used in any orientation.SiO2 charge as fast as lithium to 90% and easily top off to 100%.
As for LiFePo4 they are dropping in price fast enough that they may also be in the running even when factoring in the downside of LiFePo4, shutting down in the cold unless you install heaters( that use additional battery capacity) and to offset the cost of a DC to DC charger to protect the alternator.
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Old 12-01-2021, 07:17 AM   #218
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that argument is a bit like saying I don't need an engine that will go 300,000 miles because I am only going to keep the vehicle for 50,000
Yes, but don't forget to consider the 50,000 mile solution is 1/6 the cost. Buying the "best" works when you can run the device to expiration and also factor in opportunity cost, depreciation, and risk. If you sell the 300,000 mile car at 150,000 odds are you will lose out on some of the inherent economy. There's risk over the extended calendar life of LFP that it may be damaged or stolen, which translates to lost use and decreased value. No different risk than a cheaper battery but the up front is less, so less lost. Yes, I get these are are unlikely events but in the context of RV's which are anything but durable or owned for extended periods, I look at my ownership horizon and I'm betting I won't own one long enough to gain value with a component that breaks even at 10 years.

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you suggest replacing offending components like inverters and furnaces, this is not exactly cheap to do,
The Suburban furnace in my class A goes for about the same price as a single battleborn battery. Presuming that the new furnace would allow me to operate over the full voltage range of a lead acid house battery (they are so spec'd, and mine does), then I would easily be money ahead over buying two battleborn's plus a converter and maybe a DC-DC converter.

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as delivered from the factory most RV's have power hungry propane furnaces
I have one. 7 running amps or so, averaging 2.5Ah is not power hungry by my estimation. I can go for days on a pair of GC-2's with no effort to economize at all. No question I could go longer running LFP but at some point solar or genset has to restore those Ah no matter what, so genset runtime and frequency then becomes the question. Maybe running the genset once every 4 days vs 3, or for an hour less per run is a game changer for some. Not to me and I suspect many others. The solar folks are probably jumping for joy though, LFP may turn their system into one hands-free with little monitoring. That's not me either.

Quote:
their furnace dies in the middle of the night, with 30% of battery capacity left due to voltage sag.
If 7 amps of draw pulls a ~200Ah house battery down below 10.5V it's not 30% charged, or a good battery. Please cite factual data, not anecdotes.

Quote:
As to inverters I know of none that continue to operate at much below 11.0 VDC seen at the inverter,
Inverters are another story which even during normal operation can put the hurt to any storage battery. If high transient currents or extended runtimes are the requirement then the system must accommodate that, and LFP can certainly make a big difference there. Every application is different, let the data drive the component selection and the user can have whatever they can afford. I'm battery agnostic, whatever technical solution solves the problem. My only argument is with those that skew the data.

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Old 12-01-2021, 08:44 AM   #219
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Mark, my points are that the LiFePo4 is not 6 times the price of Lead Acid anymore, it is closer to 3 times, give or take how you count it. I just installed 420AH worth of LiFePo4 batteries, all in with fuses, wires, DC-DC/ MPPT charger for right at $2,000 total, which including moving the battery bank to a cabinet inside my coach (batteries alone were just under $1,500 delivered). I could have saved about $300 going batteries that did not have smart BMS with bluetooth, and with less warranty.


As to the rest, my Suburban SF-42F furnace sucks down 11.5 amps when running, which means on a cold night, if my pair of GC2 lead acid batteries were not in perfect shape the low battery alarm would often start squealing about half an hour before sunrise on a cold morning.




As to the rest of the stuff brought up above, there is a lot of misinformation out there, like LiFePo4 being more sensitive to charging, it is not, in many ways it less sensitive to poor charging than Lead Acid, though they do have some specific requirements that are different from Lead Acid.


Another bit of misinformation when it comes to LiFePo4 is about floating, it is not so much that they can't float it is that they don't need to float. One can Float LiFePo4, though they are happiest floating at about 70% charge level unlike Lead Acid that want to float at 100%, this does not mean you can't float LiFePo4 at 100%, but if you do, you will shorten its charge cycle life down to perhaps a couple of thousand charge cycles, which is still several times the number of charge cycles a well maintained Lead acid battery has in the best of cases.


Yes, LiFePo4 are sensitive to the cold, but if the temperatures under my kitchen cabinet where I have located my LiFePo4 battery bank gets below 32F while I am using the coach, I probably have bigger problems than having to warm up the batteries before I can charge them. (they can still discharge down to 14F).


So yes LiFePo4 requires some changes, like installing a $230 50 amp DC-DC charger in my case, but in the overall scheme that is not much money, as I mentioned above, battery cost itself was 3/4 of my LiFePo4 conversion cost, with the next biggest item being the $230 Renogy 50 amp DC-DC charger with MPPT, and the rest being cables, wires, fuses, etc.
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Old 12-01-2021, 09:02 AM   #220
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for me it's all about weight,be it in the kayaks,boats or on the truck tongue.i have a finite amount of cargo capacity and if i can shave off a considerable amount from the batteries it's a done deal,regardless of the cost.they sure work for me.no more fla.
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Old 12-01-2021, 09:08 AM   #221
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As to the rest, my Suburban SF-42F furnace sucks down 11.5 amps when running, which means on a cold night, if my pair of GC2 lead acid batteries were not in perfect shape the low battery alarm would often start squealing about half an hour before sunrise on a cold morning.
People seem to forget leads have reduced capacity the colder they get and guess what its cold when you run you furnace. Also your not typically just running the furnace you have other loads like lights and maybe charging phones and fridge 12v circuits, for me that adds another few amps all the time as well. My 2 golf cart leads could usually do overnight with the furnace but not two nights which was normally fine however now with my LFP bank I could go days and not think about it along with making coffee and using the microwave and watching tv or working on the computer.


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Another bit of misinformation when it comes to LiFePo4 is about floating, it is not so much that they can't float it is that they don't need to float. One can Float LiFePo4, though they are happiest floating at about 70% charge level unlike Lead Acid that want to float at 100%, this does not mean you can't float LiFePo4 at 100%, but if you do, you will shorten its charge cycle life down to perhaps a couple of thousand charge cycles, which is still several times the number of charge cycles a well maintained Lead acid battery has in the best of cases.
Its not even that bad with LFP, the 70% thing comes from the NMC world, high temperature is what ages them, high SOC even a 100% has only a minor effect on capacity loss which is why Battleborn says they don't care if you float them at 13.6 forever just don't let them sit in 100F+ temps all the time.
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Old 12-01-2021, 01:39 PM   #222
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.....

Would you agree when it comes to money (cost) the 'affordable’ term describes your ability to pay not a property of the battery.

I also see by your answer you are a sail boater. We are seeing older sail boaters moving to trawlers in order to keep boating into older age.
I would agree!

Our oldest sailor is 93 and still races. I am now the second oldest racer and decided that I would no longer race single handed in 25 knot winds. There is one older sailor but he is a retired from his days of having a fishing trawler in Alaska.

We have a status called life member. Sell there boat when they can no longer climb aboard there boat but they are still welcome to use the club.
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Old 12-01-2021, 02:25 PM   #223
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....

Good deep cycle AGM's aren't sub $100 batteries either, my Lifeline AGM where $350 batteries, .....

My 4 GC2 for the MH from Costco or 2 marine batteries for my sailboat are not cheap. They work fine and last a long time.

That is a hard criteria to beat.

Since these batteries are not cheap, I spend a little researching alternatives.

What I fine is options that are 2x, 3x, 4x, 10x more expensive.

I am sure they work fine and last a long time also.
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Old 12-01-2021, 06:32 PM   #224
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I have been arguing with you on this point, but I had an aha moment. If you look at the data for FLA life cycles vs. DOD, it is very linear from about 30% DOD to 100% DOD. I wish I had comprehended what that meant before today. That means you are correct. 50% DOD seems to be a myth. There is no harm going to 80% DOD. Wow. Maybe if I listened better I would understand your point (said every wife, ever).

Interesting observation. The charts you present show the AGM cycle life will drop about 40% (from 1500 to about 900 cycles) if you discharge to 70% instead of 50%. The curve is definitely not as steep beyond 50% but it's not flat.

So, if you discharge a 200 Ah AGM to 50% 1500 times, you've reaped 150,000 Ah. If you discharge it to 70% for 900 cycles, you will get 126,000 Ah.

Assume the battery costs $200. Using it down to 50% will cost $0.0013 per Ah. Using it down to 70% will cost $0.0016 per Ah.

So, there is a cost to discharging an AGM to 70%. The cost per Ah stored is increased about 23%.

I'm not saying don't go to 70% instead of 50%, only that it does increase cost. Though not as much as going from, say, 30% to 50%.
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