Lithium Batteries are NOT Worth the Extra Cost?

[hclarkx]

Originally Posted by Biljol

Where in the —-blank—- is anyone camping in sub freezing temperatures. If I am camping and the temp outside is less than 38F (when I would charge my battery’s (10am-5pm) I am packing up and moving.

All this talk about temps is driving me nuts you can discharge lifepo4 down to -4F and that battery temp not air temp. Just pulling current from the battery’s will raise the temp.

Yes you can not charge under 32F but who would, by mid day your temps would be above that unless your camping in a blizzard and if you are you should reevaluate your living conditions.

Definitely not intentionally, but it happens. About a year ago in a thread several RVers including me reported experiencing cold (down around 20F overnight) and not having the battery get below 40F. LiFePO4 doesn't have huge mass, but enough that it takes quite a while for the battery temperature to drop if it has any protection at all from ambient.

[paul65k]

My batteries are located in an otherwise unused (or possibly underutilized) area that is in the climate-controlled portion of the coach.

If it gets cold we'll be running the propane heater..... I specifically put the batteries in an environment that would be the same as our living environment, (like the Kitchen cabinet example) and those LiFePO4 batteries can take a lot more temperature variation than us mere mortals can handle.....


PS.... I get the conversation with the wife as we are now "Negotiating" on which cabinet(s) will have to go to accommodate the Mini-split units..... I feel your pain

[Mzbrandi]

Originally Posted by smeg99

Lithium batteries cost 5 times+ more than golf cart batteries from Costco. I get 5 years from golf cart batteries with minimum maintenance. No special charging required - just plug in, generator, drive and solar panels. All my requirements are covered.


To break even (not counting the fact that the extra lithium $$ can be invested) I'd have to have the same motorhome for 25 years.That will not happen. I will not even alive in 25 years.


So why buy lithium? Is it just the latest "big deal"?

I have 600 real watts of lithium batteries where I only had 400-ish LA batteries at half the weight.

Brandi

[jharrell]

Originally Posted by Lt Dan

That is correct. By law, the battery bay has to be open to the atmosphere for venting.

Is that a Federal or State law? Perhaps you mean regulation or guideline? Would be interesting to read it if you could point me too it.

RV's that come with lithium and of course electric cars are not normally in vented compartments so obviously if there is a law it must only apply to lead acid chemistries.

Either way if you have a vented battery compartment its normally not that difficult to seal it up with insulation as was shown in the link I posted or simply add a small holding tank heating pad if you plan to camp in below freezing temperatures.

I haven't bothered to try and insulate may battery bay since it stays 10f above ambient on its own and I very rarely if ever need to charge my batteries when its 22f outside. If it did become an issue I would just stick a $50 holding tank heating pad on the bottom of the battery tray and turn it on if I needed to charge.

[Marine359]

Originally Posted by Bylandorsea

Why are the owners of LiFePo4 batteries in denial of the glaring fault with LiFePo4. They are ill suited for a low temperature environment. LiFePo4: have to rely on a BMS to protect the battery some are cheap and they fail, just look at the test. When the BMS works you cannot recharge the battery!! .

So how many rvers want or need to charge their batteries that are exposed to sub-freezing temperature? I would guess close to zero. The only ones would be those who only have the option to mount them exposed, typically MH owners. For them, there are 12v battery blankets.

I have no need for battery heaters, because although I sometimes camp in sub-freezing temperatures, my battery is mounted inside a heated area of my rv, as I would assume many other rvers do. As a matter of fact, it’s one of the reasons folk buy LiFePo4, precisely because they can safely mount them inside a heated area. Don’t know why you’re trying to scare people away from LiFePo4. Maybe you can come up with a credible reason to not buy LiFePo4.

[Bedlam]

Originally Posted by Biljol

Bedlam

So your basement stays below freezing 24/7 how do you keep your water tanks from becoming a block of ice. I am going to guess you have some heat down in the basement where the lifepo4 could be located.

Lt Dan

having the battery compartment vented only applies to lead.

Issac

As I said your temps where over the charging cut off temps by 10am the next morning when I would start charging the battery’s

None of these show that the lifepo4 could not be used in any of these situations. That’s why I am asking for someone to tell me a time that you camped and your temps, where your battery’s would be charging was below 32F for days ……

Heated basement holds plumbing,electrical and holding tanks:



External unheated storage holds FLA and AGM batteries:

[Isaac-1]

Not very good color coding on those wires, also parallel chains of batteries should be fed from opposite ends, not with the negative and positive cables both on the same battery. Also that breaker shown in the next to last photo is not rated with high enough interupting current for low resistance LiFePo4 batteries.


See

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHFa6izK1-U

p.s. here is another video on the subject

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHmkWrRmQHk

[Bedlam]

The point of my previous post was about unheated storage, but you want to take it off tangent:


1. The batteries don't care what the color insulation I use and it is not touched by anyone else unless they are trying to steal them.
2. The wires to one side of the battery continued on to additional cells since this is 5-battery box. This picture does not show the breaker and heavy lines connected.
3. These are used Deka AGM's out of a server room. They were bundled in sets of five and the breakers are proper amperage for the batteries and wiring used. I have four banks of five batteries (plus the two FLA) and four additional AGM's were used for other projects or spares.
4. Not shown is charging from solar, on-board generator, shore power or dual alternator equipped engine nor the Anderson interconnects and bus bars.

[Biljol]

Bedlam

If you had lifepo4 I see there is a lot of room in your heated area for the battery’s.

Also I see you built a box looks like that’s for a separate area (trailer) not the RV different usage that the thread is discussing.

Looks like both of the RV Banks could be fitted with some type of heating that would bring the batteries to temp for charging. This would be good for any battery not just lifepo4 for the health of the battery’s.

As for usage there is no issue using lifepo4 down to -4F. So you only need to worry about temp when charging and that charge source could supply the power to get the batteries to temp.

I do applaud you for using AGM over FLA.

Also remember just pulling current from the battery’s cause heat I would be interested in seeing temperature logging of the battery’s over the course of one camping trip with the days never over 20F. I would think there is living area above the battery’s and some of that heat will get into the compartment.

[Bedlam]

My setup is different than your motorhome and I am getting the AGM sets for free about five years with their cyclical replacements. Due to environmental regulations, it is getting harder to get my free ones without having a set ready to go to the recycler and my source will be retiring after the next change out, so I will have figure out which way to go at that point.


This is really a low budget install compared to many. I built my own bus bars by cutting down copper pipe and flattening and drilling it to interconnect batteries. I use Black Friday jumper cable specials for shorter runs and welding cable for the longer ones. All the copper connections are hammer crimp molded.

[Isaac-1]

Bedlam, my only point with color coding wire is that you never know when some unsuspecting person will be working on it and assume red is positive. As to the wiring issue on the metal box mounted bank, it is hard to see for sure, but it looks like you have the main positive and negative connection at the same end of the chain, doing it this way will not evenly drain the batteries in the parallel bank due to the resistance along the wire from one end of the chain to the other.


Here is a graphic showing the preferred and perfect cable layout, note how they differ from yours feeding both +/- off one end


I don't mean to get off on a tangent, just noting what I saw in your photos

[Bylandorsea]

Originally Posted by Biljol

Where in the —-blank—- is anyone camping in sub freezing temperatures. If I am camping and the temp outside is less than 38F (when I would charge my battery’s (10am-5pm) I am packing up and moving.

All this talk about temps is driving me nuts you can discharge lifepo4 down to -4F and that battery temp not air temp. Just pulling current from the battery’s will raise the temp.

Yes you can not charge under 32F but who would, by mid day your temps would be above that unless your camping in a blizzard and if you are you should reevaluate your living conditions.

We Campers are a diverse and hardy lot while some run from the cold others embraces it! Others full timers are forced to RV where the jobs take them, traveling nurses construction workers ETC… Not all campers are snow birds or live in southern climates. Take a little time to read others post you will find out for yourself.
This is a quote by 2cyber71 on 11/27/21 “I did a 4 weekend up near Rochester, NY in May 2020. and I used about 10 gallons. It was really cold. 15 at night high 20s daytime.”

As to our original question “Lithium Batteries are NOT Worth the Extra Cost?”

The answer is no for me

SiO2 Battery $4.093 per amp hour 6V 260Ah SiO2 Battery GC2 RV Golf Cart $532.19X 2 = $1064.38 $4.093 per amp hour
6V 260Ah SiO2 Battery GC2 RV Golf Cart – Azimuth Solar Products US Website
LiFePo4 $8.20 per amp hour 100Ah 12V BB10012 Heated Battery Kit – 1 Battery
$899.00 $820.00 $8.20 per amp hour

https://battlebornbatteries.com/prod...kit-1-battery/
SiO2 Battery
Suitable for tough weather conditions with stable performance under extreme cold (down to -40C) or dry heat (up to 65 degrees Celsius)
2 years Warranty
24-month shelf life without needing to refresh the battery
No Sulphation
8-12 year service life, based on up to 30-50% daily discharge
Long lasting up to five times longer than AGM batteries at 50% DoD (depth of discharge)
Full recovery after a deep discharge
High cycle life – 2800 Cycles at 50% DoD
Environmentally friendly
Safe to transport by air
No leakage and very low gassing compared to Lead Acid Batteries
99% Recyclable
Huge range of sizes to fit every application, from scooters, wheelchairs, lifts and uninterruptable power supply systems to RVs, campers, fishing boats to large solar energy storage banks. Can be discharged repeatedly to 100% DoD with full recovery of capacity.

[corn18]

Originally Posted by Bylandorsea

We Campers are a diverse and hardy lot while some run from the cold others embraces it! Others full timers are forced to RV where the jobs take them, traveling nurses construction workers ETC… Not all campers are snow birds or live in southern climates. Take a little time to read others post you will find out for yourself.
This is a quote by 2cyber71 on 11/27/21 “I did a 4 weekend up near Rochester, NY in May 2020. and I used about 10 gallons. It was really cold. 15 at night high 20s daytime.”

As to our original question “Lithium Batteries are NOT Worth the Extra Cost?”

The answer is no for me

SiO2 Battery $4.093 per amp hour 6V 260Ah SiO2 Battery GC2 RV Golf Cart $532.19X 2 = $1064.38 $4.093 per amp hour
6V 260Ah SiO2 Battery GC2 RV Golf Cart – Azimuth Solar Products US Website
LiFePo4 $8.20 per amp hour 100Ah 12V BB10012 Heated Battery Kit – 1 Battery
$899.00 $820.00 $8.20 per amp hour

https://battlebornbatteries.com/prod...kit-1-battery/
SiO2 Battery
Suitable for tough weather conditions with stable performance under extreme cold (down to -40C) or dry heat (up to 65 degrees Celsius)
2 years Warranty
24-month shelf life without needing to refresh the battery
No Sulphation
8-12 year service life, based on up to 30-50% daily discharge
Long lasting up to five times longer than AGM batteries at 50% DoD (depth of discharge)
Full recovery after a deep discharge
High cycle life – 2800 Cycles at 50% DoD
Environmentally friendly
Safe to transport by air
No leakage and very low gassing compared to Lead Acid Batteries
99% Recyclable
Huge range of sizes to fit every application, from scooters, wheelchairs, lifts and uninterruptable power supply systems to RVs, campers, fishing boats to large solar energy storage banks. Can be discharged repeatedly to 100% DoD with full recovery of capacity.

Ahhh.... the convenient 50% DOD chart when it fits your narrative. On one hand, SiO2 is great because it can go to a higher DOD than 50% and maintain cycles. Almost as good as LiFePO4. On the other hand, let's make a chart comparing it to LiFePO4 @ 50% DOD. How convenient.

[jharrell]

Originally Posted by Bylandorsea

SiO2 Battery $4.093 per amp hour 6V 260Ah SiO2 Battery GC2 RV Golf Cart $532.19X 2 = $1064.38 $4.093 per amp hour
6V 260Ah SiO2 Battery GC2 RV Golf Cart – Azimuth Solar Products US Website
LiFePo4 $8.20 per amp hour 100Ah 12V BB10012 Heated Battery Kit – 1 Battery
$899.00 $820.00 $8.20 per amp hour

Originally Posted by Bylandorsea

High cycle life – 2800 Cycles at 50% DoD

50% DoD vs 100% DoD for the same cycles, 100ah lithium = 200ah SiO2 usable capacity for similar lifetime. You need twice the SiO2 ah you do from Lithium if you want 2800+ cycles. Also note SiO2 is rated at c/20 lithium is rated at c/1, SiO2 would rate at 40% less capacity at c/1 due to Peukert.

$4.093 * 2 = $8.19 per usable ah for SiO2 vs a heated lithium at $8.20 at the same cycle rating. On top of that the lithium has no Peukert effect and loses less capacity at low temperatures so the reality is even less $ per useable ah in the cold or with higher draws. Also no absorb charging is required.

If you do not require heating or wish to do your own heating system then a quality 12v 206ah lithium can be had for $5 per ah from SOK.

Originally Posted by Bylandorsea

Can be discharged repeatedly to 100% DoD with full recovery of capacity.

Every charge cycle of every DoD of every chemistry reduces capacity to some degree, some less than others, hence the cycle life ratings, so this is a false statement.

At 100% DoD the SiO2 only has a 600 cycle life rating similar to every other lead acid battery type, I would not recommend spending $500 on a lead battery and cycling to 100% DoD it is a waste of money as a much cheaper lead will perform similarly.