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Old 12-03-2021, 06:24 PM   #267
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So how many rvers want or need to charge their batteries that are exposed to sub-freezing temperature? I would guess close to zero. The only ones would be those who only have the option to mount them exposed, typically MH owners. For them, there are 12v battery blankets.

I have no need for battery heaters, because although I sometimes camp in sub-freezing temperatures, my battery is mounted inside a heated area of my rv, as I would assume many other rvers do. As a matter of fact, it’s one of the reasons folk buy LiFePo4, precisely because they can safely mount them inside a heated area. Don’t know why you’re trying to scare people away from LiFePo4. Maybe you can come up with a credible reason to not buy LiFePo4.
Marine359
Please try to look at it from my point of view.

My MH has a big compartment with the big slide out battery tray with all the wiring and cables for the house/inverter system.

Why is it so hard for you to see that I don’t feel that it is cost effective to abandon this set up, re-cable at an additional cost, and add a DC to DC charger to protect my alternator at an additional cost?

Do you really think I should move batteries inside and take up valuable storage or living space because they can’t fully function at the range of outside temperatures in the USA.

Do you really think I should pay double for: LiFePo4 $8.20 per amp hour vs SiO2 Battery $4.093 per amp hour
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Old 12-03-2021, 06:35 PM   #268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bylandorsea;

[url
https://battlebornbatteries.com/product/cyber-monday-100ah-12v-bb10012-heated-battery-kit-1-battery/[/url]
SiO2 Battery
And once again lets compare to the most expensive lifepo4 battery’s on the market today with a 10 year warranty to the 2 years of your SiO2 your providing a price on. Please call the vendor and ask them for a 10 year no question asked warranty on your SiO2 and I am sure it will double if not triple the cost. Why because they know they will have to replace them at least once in that 10 years.

Find a lifepo4 with the same warranty to compare at least.

Any comparison needs to account for the life of the battery.

If SiO2 is so good why such a short warranty I have a better warranty on my AGM starter battery’s 3 year free replacement and 6 year prorate.
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Old 12-03-2021, 06:37 PM   #269
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Notice this math only works when you use something like a top of the line heated Battle Born LiFePo4 battery with a 10 year warranty, which sells for $899 for a 100AH battery. Try running that math again with just about ANY other LiFePo4,



Renogy 200AH battery with bluetooth, on sale $1099 https://www.renogy.com/12v-200ah-lit...y-w-bluetooth/ (biger company been selling in the US for several years, has 3 year warranty)


ReBel 200AH battery with smart BMS / Bluetooth $839 https://rebelbatteries.com/products/...sphate-battery 5 year warranty US seller of customized batteries, though they have only been in business a year or so.


Cheap ebay US seller batteries Global Power 100AH $298 with free shipping, US ebay seller been selling on ebay for over a decade 100% positive feedback over 6800 sales https://www.ebay.com/itm/373490407212 2 year warranty
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Old 12-03-2021, 06:41 PM   #270
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50% DoD vs 100% DoD for the same cycles, 100ah lithium = 200ah SiO2 usable capacity for similar lifetime. You need twice the SiO2 ah you do from Lithium if you want 2800+ cycles. Also note SiO2 is rated at c/20 lithium is rated at c/1, SiO2 would rate at 40% less capacity at c/1 due to Peukert.

$4.093 * 2 = $8.19 per usable ah for SiO2 vs a heated lithium at $8.20 at the same cycle rating. On top of that the lithium has no Peukert effect and loses less capacity at low temperatures so the reality is even less $ per useable ah in the cold or with higher draws. Also no absorb charging is required.

If you do not require heating or wish to do your own heating system then a quality 12v 206ah lithium can be had for $5 per ah from SOK.



Every charge cycle of every DoD of every chemistry reduces capacity to some degree, some less than others, hence the cycle life ratings, so this is a false statement.

At 100% DoD the SiO2 only has a 600 cycle life rating similar to every other lead acid battery type, I would not recommend spending $500 on a lead battery and cycling to 100% DoD it is a waste of money as a much cheaper lead will perform similarly.
Please try to look at it from my point of view.

I would not have cheap rebranded generic made in China batteries like the Chins batteries
If I had a need for batteries and the location was in a living are I might consider a premium assembled in North America battery such as Battle Born when the price drops by half!


My MH has a big compartment with the big slide out battery tray with all the wiring and cables for the house/inverter system.

Why is it so hard for you to see that I don’t feel that it is cost effective to abandon this set up, re-cable at an additional cost, and add a DC to DC charger to protect my alternator at an additional cost?

Do you really think I should move batteries inside and take up valuable storage or living space because they can’t fully function at the range of outside temperatures in the USA.

SiO2 batteries are Environmentally friendly 99% Recyclable
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Old 12-03-2021, 06:43 PM   #271
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ShelbyM

Your right on what people can afford today but the topic of this thread is “lithium not worth the extra cost”

I don’t think it can ever be proven that lithium at today prices (excluding BB) is definitely worth the extra cost.

Because there is no extra cost when looking at the lifetime of a lifepo4 to any other battery on the market.
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Old 12-03-2021, 06:47 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by Isaac-1 View Post
Notice this math only works when you use something like a top of the line heated Battle Born LiFePo4 battery with a 10 year warranty, which sells for $899 for a 100AH battery. Try running that math again with just about ANY other LiFePo4,



Renogy 200AH battery with bluetooth, on sale $1099 https://www.renogy.com/12v-200ah-lit...y-w-bluetooth/ (biger company been selling in the US for several years, has 3 year warranty)


ReBel 200AH battery with smart BMS / Bluetooth $839 https://rebelbatteries.com/products/...sphate-battery 5 year warranty US seller of customized batteries, though they have only been in business a year or so.


Cheap ebay US seller batteries Global Power 100AH $298 with free shipping, US ebay seller been selling on ebay for over a decade 100% positive feedback over 6800 sales https://www.ebay.com/itm/373490407212 2 year warranty
I would not have cheap rebranded generic made in China batteries like the Chins batteries
If I had a need for batteries and the location was in a living area I might consider a premium assembled in North America battery such as Battle Born when the price drops by half! My batteries are in a exposed outside battery compartment with the a slide out battery tray with all the wiring and cables for the house/inverter system
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Old 12-03-2021, 06:47 PM   #273
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Battle born battery’s are assembled in the USA don’t kid yourself on where the parts and pieces are coming from.

I hope that RV your diving was 100% manufactured in the USA but I am 100% sure it was not.

I wish it was.
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Old 12-03-2021, 06:55 PM   #274
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I would not have cheap rebranded generic made in China batteries
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Quote:
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My MH has a big compartment with the big slide out battery tray with all the wiring and cables for the house/inverter system.
$50 Sewage tank heat pads allow you reuse your existing battery bay with lithiums if you feel that bay will be below freezing when a charge is needed or perhaps add some insulation since lithiums do not vent corrosive flammable gases constantly needing a compartment open to the elements.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bylandorsea View Post
Why is it so hard for you to see that I don’t feel that it is cost effective to abandon this set up, re-cable at an additional cost, and add a DC to DC charger to protect my alternator at an additional cost?
Do SiO2 charge as fast as Lithium or not? If so they need alternator protection too, probably not. Lithium BIM or Dc-Dc chargers are under $200 if you feel that necessary, I am currently using no dc-dc charger just my old battery interconnect and my alternator is fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bylandorsea View Post
SiO2 batteries are Environmentally friendly 99% Recyclable
Lead is not environmentally friendly, lithium batteries are also recyclable.
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Old 12-03-2021, 07:16 PM   #275
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Originally Posted by Biljol View Post
Battle born battery’s are assembled in the USA don’t kid yourself on where the parts and pieces are coming from.

I hope that RV your diving was 100% manufactured in the USA but I am 100% sure it was not.

I wish it was.
Biljol

Sorry if my opinion offended you.
I did not intend to hurt your feelings.

It would be courteous of you to actually take time to read my post.
“I might consider a premium assembled in North America battery such as Battle Born when the price drops by half!”

As to our original question “Lithium Batteries are NOT Worth the Extra Cost?”
The answer is no for me
SiO2 Battery $4.093 per amp hour 6V 260Ah SiO2 Battery GC2 RV Golf Cart $532.19X 2 = $1064.38 $4.093 per amp hour

I do admit to cringing when I am forcer to buy things made in China batteries by forced labor using power from cheap coal. Not US coal where safety and environmental regulation are strict. Then have someone try to tell that they are eco friendly.
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Old 12-03-2021, 07:17 PM   #276
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We have two RVs, a 5th wheeler and a MH. The MH has lithium batteries while the 5th does very well with the FLA batteries. There was a solid basis to upgrade the MH but I do not have any problems in the 5th that lithium will solve.

I not set on either technology. If I have a problem I'll search for the "best" solution in our case.
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Old 12-03-2021, 07:39 PM   #277
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Originally Posted by Bylandorsea View Post
As to our original question “Lithium Batteries are NOT Worth the Extra Cost?”
The answer is no for me
SiO2 Battery $4.093 per amp hour 6V 260Ah SiO2 Battery GC2 RV Golf Cart $532.19X 2 = $1064.38 $4.093 per amp hour
Why would you calculate 260ah? To get high cycle life you can only discharge them to 50%, you should cut that in half. I you run them down to 0% to get the full 260ah then you only get 600 cycles, might as well just buy cheaper lead acids.

260 / 2 = 130 usable ah = $8.19 per ah...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bylandorsea View Post
I do admit to cringing when I am forcer to buy things made in China batteries by forced labor using power from cheap coal. Not US coal where safety and environmental regulation are strict. Then have someone try to tell that they are eco friendly.
Better cringe some more when you buy those Chinese SiO2 Lead batteries...
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Old 12-03-2021, 08:26 PM   #278
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I can agree about not buying the cheaper imported rebranded batteries, this is part of why I ended up buying ReBel customized imported batteries, where we have someone in the US, not only selling them, but having them built using their specified components, and doing quality assurance including posting tear down videos online,as well as handling the warranty coverage with a 5 year warranty. I will admit my decision was driven by bang for the buck, as they cost less than half the price per AH that Battle Born batteries are going for at the moment, yet are a distinct step up above the generic Chins batteries..


As to where they were built, I don't see a lot of difference between assembled in the US vs assembled in China as long as the assembly quality is good.
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Old 12-03-2021, 08:54 PM   #279
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$50 Sewage tank heat pads allow you reuse your existing battery bay with lithiums if you feel that bay will be below freezing when a charge is needed or perhaps add some insulation since lithiums do not vent corrosive flammable gases constantly needing a compartment open to the elements.



Do SiO2 charge as fast as Lithium or not? If so they need alternator protection too, probably not. Lithium BIM or Dc-Dc chargers are under $200 if you feel that necessary, I am currently using no dc-dc charger just my old battery interconnect and my alternator is fine.



Lead is not environmentally friendly, lithium batteries are also recyclable.

Do you really think I should pay double for: LiFePo4 $8.20 per amp hour vs SiO2 Battery $4.093 per amp hour

Why would I buy a battery that cost twice as much and needs a heater
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Old 12-03-2021, 09:09 PM   #280
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Do you really think I should pay double for: LiFePo4 $8.20 per amp hour vs SiO2 Battery $4.093 per amp hour

Why would I buy a battery that cost twice as much and needs a heater
Not sure if you are just ignoring my other responses to this question, but let me repeat SIO2 only get lithium like cycles at 50% dod, therefore the usable capacity given equivalent cycles is half that of the rated capacity therefore it is not double but seems to be nearly identical to the most expensive heated lithium. This is also only at a much lower discharge rate than lithium, at equivalent discharge rate the useable capacity drops nearly half again.

Since you seem to be ok with buying Chinese SIO2 batteries with a 2 year warranty from an unknown company I would suggest comparing to Chinese Lithiums with a 7 year warranty like SOK for an even better $5 per ah and cheap methods of keeping them above freezing when charging.
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