Lithium Batteries are NOT Worth the Extra Cost?

[tqqest]

If you build your own, which is very easy to do, lifepo4 batteries can be cheaper than AGM. I did a group order on the diysolar forum. I paid $1,565 for 16 new 280ah cells. I then bought 4 plastic battery boxes for $48, 4 120ah Bluetooth enabled BMSs for $520, and assorted cabling, terminals, etc for another $200. I then assembled from that, 4 separate 280ah battery packs, that total 1,120ah of battery power.

Total investment was roughly $2,400, or $600 for each 280ah battery. Pretty close to what 8 220ah 6 volt AGM batteries would be. But, my 8 AGM were 880ah of which about 530ah are usable at a 60% depth of discharge. My lifepo4 can very easily do an 80% depth of discharge for 900ah of power.

The biggest pluses are, how flat the voltage is throughout the discharge cycle, and how quickly they can be recharged. I can’t see ever going back to a FLA battery again.

[smeg99]

I guess it all depends on what your requirements are. I mainly boondock and all my requirements are met with 2 golf cart batteries from Costco. 175 AH. Never go below 1/2 capacity. $120 each. Your requirements could be different. I do almost no battery maintenance and get at least 5 years out of a set. You can pay a lot more for lead acid batteries but I'm happy with those at Costco.


If I need that microwave or want toast, I have a 5500 Watt generator. That's what it's for.



Battle Born (which many recommend) 100 AH battery $949 (on sale for $799). Never good to run any type of battery dead so best to buy 2 for a total of $1598+tax compared to $240+ tax for 2 Costco golf cart batteries. That would be 6.7 times more. More capacity but I don't need it.



If you buy the cheap lithium 100 AH from Amazon for $366 each+tax it would be 3 times more.


I don't go out and buy the latest thing unless I can see a benefit. I'll never line up for the latest iphone.

I'm not saying that there are no benefits to lithium but I don't buy the oft put forward theme that lithium are lower cost in the long run or by the AH when compared to real world RV usage.

Before calling fake news, better check your facts.

[HarryStone]

You can't run a lithium battery flat. When it gets to its minimum operating voltage, the controller inside the battery shuts it off. Just like a lithium battery in your power tools.

[corn18]

Originally Posted by smeg99

I guess it all depends on what your requirements are. I mainly boondock and all my requirements are met with 2 golf cart batteries from Costco. 175 AH. Never go below 1/2 capacity. $120 each. Your requirements could be different. I do almost no battery maintenance and get at least 5 years out of a set. You can pay a lot more for lead acid batteries but I'm happy with those at Costco.


If I need that microwave or want toast, I have a 5500 Watt generator. That's what it's for.



Battle Born (which many recommend) 100 AH battery $949 (on sale for $799). Never good to run any type of battery dead so best to buy 2 for a total of $1598+tax compared to $240+ tax for 2 Costco golf cart batteries. That would be 6.7 times more. More capacity but I don't need it.



If you buy the cheap lithium 100 AH from Amazon for $366 each+tax it would be 3 times more.


I don't go out and buy the latest thing unless I can see a benefit. I'll never line up for the latest iphone.



Before calling fake news, better check your facts.

2x210Ah golf cart batteries = $240 = 105Ah usable $2.29 / Ah

1x100Ah LiFePO4 = $399 = 100 Ah usable $3.99 / Ah

1.74X to LiFePO4, not 3x.

If you want to go high quality, get a SOK 100Ah LiFePO4 for $570, $5.70 / Ah. That's 2.5x your setup.

You decide what you value. Making a blanket statement that it isn't worth the extra cost is folly. It sure is to me.

This little setup gives me 206Ah. Try putting 206Ah of FLA in that space (hint: you can't, it's in my basement). And I have another 206Ah battery on the way. You would need 8 golf cart batteries to get that much Ah. My 2 batteries weigh 72 lbs. 8 golf cart batteries weigh 464 lbs.

[arcaguy]

Some folks like blondes, some folks like redheads, and some like brunettes. Some like Fords, some like Chevys, some like Dodges. I could go on and on. The point being that for some folks FLA works just fine, for some others it doesn't. Personally I can see advantages and disadvantages for both, it's whatever fits your personal situation best. There's no need to argue about it.

[Camper25]

I'm all for the new technology. I'll go with one of the $399 Lithium's though.

[Biljol]

I am not arguing what is better but the statement that lifepo4 is 5x more is just wrong …..

Yes lifepo4 is more than FLA but in no way is it 5x more.

Also comparing FLA to battle borne is like a yugo to a Bugatti let’s compare the yugo to a Ford expedition. Both the Bugatti and the expedition are lifepo4 and they will all get you to the market.

How do I know because I decided it’s better for me. 1350 for 400 ah of lifepo4………how much do you pay for 400 ah. of FLA I am sure it is much more than 270.00 that’s 1/5th of 1350.

[nvs4602]

Originally Posted by corn18

2x210Ah golf cart batteries = $240 = 105Ah usable $2.29 / Ah

1x100Ah LiFePO4 = $399 = 100 Ah usable $3.99 / Ah

1.74X to LiFePO4, not 3x.

If you want to go high quality, get a SOK 100Ah LiFePO4 for $570, $5.70 / Ah. That's 2.5x your setup.

You decide what you value. Making a blanket statement that it isn't worth the extra cost is folly. It sure is to me.

This little setup gives me 206Ah. Try putting 206Ah of FLA in that space (hint: you can't, it's in my basement). And I have another 206Ah battery on the way. You would need 8 golf cart batteries to get that much Ah. My 2 batteries weigh 72 lbs. 8 golf cart batteries weigh 464 lbs.

So are you gong to drive up and help me this winter to install mine? You are about 80 miles south of me.

[followingsea]

Originally Posted by smeg99

.....(not counting the fact that the extra lithium $$ can be invested) ......

Or if you are retired, the money comes from investments.

Did take money out to pay cash for a house in winter and RV lot because we enjoyed them. Turned out to be good investments.

Bought a new sail for enjoyment. Not an investment.

Even when doing something for enjoyment, I consider cost.

I have heard it said, 'he who has the most toys wins'.

[corn18]

Originally Posted by nvs4602

So are you gong to drive up and help me this winter to install mine? You are about 80 miles south of me.

Absolutely. I grew up in Wapak.

[hclarkx]

Lots of benefits/advantages to LiFePO4. I'll try to summarize .....

Advantages:
Safer than acid (it's the BMS)
Self-protecting (it's the BMS)
Requires less solar (about 35% less)
Charges far faster (for generator users)
Lighter
Smaller
Voltage holds up well down to ~10% SOC
Longer life
Cheaper if you can DIY
Some have built-in monitoring via BT
Low losses *


Disadvantages:
May cost more for some
Can't charge if battery is below 32F


* Take 100 Ah out of a 200 Ah AGM and it's down to 40% SOC. Take 100 Ah out of a 200 Ah LiFePO4 and it's down to 50% SOC.

[paul65k]

Originally Posted by smeg99

Lithium batteries cost 5 times+ more than golf cart batteries from Costco. I get 5 years from golf cart batteries with minimum maintenance. No special charging required - just plug in, generator, drive and solar panels. All my requirements are covered.


To break even (not counting the fact that the extra lithium $$ can be invested) I'd have to have the same motorhome for 25 years.That will not happen. I will not even alive in 25 years.


So why buy lithium? Is it just the latest "big deal"?

Just curious....if you could wave a magic wand how much more if any do you think lithium batteries are worth ??

[Marine359]

People with 200ah of FLA must endure the self-induced torture of being hooked to shore power or running a generator for hours on end to recharge those puppies. Alternatively, they can pay over $500 to wire up their TV and install a dc to dc charger. Something nobody mentions when doing a cost comparison of FLA vrs LiFePo4.

Additionally, if I run my small generator for two hours to charge my LiFePo4 from 30% to 100% SOC, and I do that 15 times, I use one 20lb tank of propane. To charge FLA from 30 to 100, 15 times, I’d have to use three or four times the amount of propane. If it costs $3.75/gal of propane, I will have made up the cost difference between FLA and LiFePo4 in two years just on the cost savings on propane. Of course, if you don’t do much boondocking, it don’t matter. If you do, it matters a lot, not to mention the equivalent weight of FLA would overload my TV Rear GAWR.

So, people will make any kind of irrational argument to justify their choices. Ever wonder why you hear motorhome generators running through the night? It’s because their auto gen start keeps the generator running seemingly forever to charge their FLA battery bank. But hey, they can afford the fuel for that right? But they can’t afford LiFePo4 which, even in the short run would cost them less than burning all that fuel.

[jrollf]

Originally Posted by HarryStone

You can't run a lithium battery flat. When it gets to its minimum operating voltage, the controller inside the battery shuts it off. Just like a lithium battery in your power tools.

Most LifePO4 BMS have a way to "wake them up" so you can charge a over discharged battery.

This is where DIY build are better, you have direct access to the cells and can bypass the BMS if needed.

BMS = Battery Management System