Lithium Batteries are NOT Worth the Extra Cost?

[hclarkx]

Originally Posted by RvNaut

Ok.. here is a scenario for you. I plan to boondock. My basic starter config will be running everything in the rig, without the need for a generator running or shore power. My power demand is such that I would need 3 times as much space and 4 times the weight to have enough LA batteries to support the load. Lithiums will last longer than I will, will take up less space and less weight and require zero maintenance. If all you are doing is keep the fridge running between RV parks, LA is fine, you don't need lithium.. if you want to boondock for weeks at a time and hold a lot of usable power Lithium is a much better choice. My initial battery bank will be around 14000 usable watt hours, supported by 2200 watts of solar, and a back up sine wave 2500 watt gasoline generator.

I am replacing the roof AC with a mini split, deleting it and the Furnace, Also deleting the Onan 4000 and eventually the massive LP tank..

LA would not be practical in this situation. I can build a 24v lithium battery for this setup for a bit under $3k, how many LA batteries would it take to give me 14000 wh? .. short answer = a 28000w LA battery bank.

Nice plan. My son has 11,000 kWh of LiFePO4, 2kW on the roof, and a 9K Gree outdoor unit under the hood where the Onan used to sit (1993 Tiffen DP). Great system.

I have a C&H 9K 120V mini split. Also 9500 kWh of LiFePO4 and 2200 Watts of panels on hand to help power it.

Have you followed the threads by one CWK here on iRV2.com? He's putting a two zone mini split in a 1991 American Eagle and eliminating propane.

I have a spreadsheet (workbook) that might interest you. Calculates generator run events for you choice of camping locations and times and your loads. Uses PVWatts for solar data.

[RvNaut]

Originally Posted by followingsea

It is not what I plan to do, it is what I do. I do it in vintage MH without modifications.

LA is the king of practical.

Consider spending more time boondocking before you start making modifications.

I am glad it works for you. What i pan to so will not go well with LA.. it would be a major pain in the butt managing that much LA, let alone storing it somewhere accessible.

You have zero experience with lithium, from what I can read, so you may be the expert on LA, but you are not one to take advice from when it comes to lithium.

Thanks

[Jack Klompus]

Originally Posted by followingsea

LA is the king of practical.

No.

[followingsea]

Originally Posted by Jack Klompus

No.

"of or concerned with the actual doing or use of something rather than with theory and ideas."

Some times a definition and examples help. My TOAD is a two seat convertible that weighs 2800 # and gets 30+ mpg. Very practical when I boondock.

Clearly there are many other types of TOAD that are 'practical' based on the needs of the user.

Today went grocery shopping with two other adults and two children in car seats. My TOAD is not 'practical'.

Based on my actual experience boondocking in a nice MH with cold beer, hot showers and a large bed, 4 GC2 LA batteries are very practical.

Let me repeat the important point, 'actual practice'.

When it comes to my time and money, I do not have experience doing things harder and spending more money than I deed to.

I spend lots of time boondocking and sailing. I do give advice about painting MH roof and the sides of the boat. Don't do it, life is too short.

[Jack Klompus]

Originally Posted by followingsea

"of or concerned with the actual doing or use of something rather than with theory and ideas."

Some times a definition and examples help. My TOAD is a two seat convertible that weighs 2800 # and gets 30+ mpg. Very practical when I boondock.

Clearly there are many other types of TOAD that are 'practical' based on the needs of the user.

Today went grocery shopping with two other adults and two children in car seats. My TOAD is not 'practical'.

Based on my actual experience boondocking in a nice MH with cold beer, hot showers and a large bed, 4 GC2 LA batteries are very practical.

Let me repeat the important point, 'actual practice'.

When it comes to my time and money, I do not have experience doing things harder and spending more money than I deed to.

I spend lots of time boondocking and sailing. I do give advice about painting MH roof and the sides of the boat. Don't do it, life is too short.

Come on. How about this? “LifePO4 is the king of practical.”

Fun game.

The notion that LifePO4 is extra work or impractical is absurd. The work I performed was: remove crappy performing heavy LA battery and replace with lightweight and robust and powerful lithium battery. Has nothing to do with converters or solar panels etc. Its a battery.

I am not sure why LA battery users can’t admit that LifePO4 CAN BE easy, affordable, effective, and practical. Its silly.

Nothing could be more practical than dropping in a new, lighter more powerful battery that requires no maintenance. If you can’t see that as practical then I can’t help you.

LA has its pros and cons … just like lithium. But it’s certainly not the king of anything other than weight.

[followingsea]

Originally Posted by Jack Klompus

.....
I am not sure why LA battery users can’t admit that LifePO4 CAN BE easy, affordable, effective, and practical. Its silly.

.....

Let me explain why again. You used the term 'affordable'.

That term describes your ability to pay not a property of the battery.

This is a discussion about changing from the current practice (i.e. practical) to a new type of battery based on it being worth the cost.

Since I recently bought 4 LA batteries my answer is no. Of course in the future that might change. When enough people change, that would be an indication that it is worth the cost.

I just paid more for a 12 vdc TV. My last RV did not have an inverter. I put a 12 vdc (cigarette lighter) outlet so I could use the old TV in my current MH.

If I turn off my inverter I can save energy.

My point is that there is lots of ways get things done. Sometimes more expressive is better and sometime new is not.

[hemifoot]

we have lithium batteries in our electric kayaks.love the bluetooth to check the status.super lightweight and power for days.when we get the new tt this spring we will be swapping the 6v system for lithium right away.hands down better in every way(other than price) than lead acid.

[Uniblab]

Okay I'll play. It's not difficult to find gently used LA (AGM) batteries from backup applications for $50 each. That's for an 80-100 amp-hour battery. I have some I bought over ten years ago running my solar landscape lighting system that are still going strong. Would I recommend a lithium battery in that application? Not a chance. Not practical (my definition of practical includes affordability). Those same batteries work great in an RV application - I used them for years. Yes they are heavier but in my 11,000lb Class-C with relatively weak gas V-10 engine I can't tell the difference of a couple hundred pounds. It was mostly a mental disadvantage to know I was lugging around the extra weight. Lithium batteries comparable to the LA ones I'm using are still 3-4x more expensive even after accounting for a max 50% discharge rate (which incidentally I have exceeded many times BTW with no apparent effect).

So if I think LA is so great, why did I go with LiFePo4 in my RV you might ask? There is no way I can justify the money I spent to have 800 amp-hours in my little RV. I didn't do it because it was practical, it was because I am a geek and like new technology, and overkill :-) You won't catch me chastising anyone for sticking with LA batteries - not everyone wants or needs the latest and greatest pricey stuff. And I'm sorry but $400 for a 100 amp-hour LiFePo4 battery is still pricey to me. When they drop to $250 (same price as two Sams club golf cart batteries), then I'll agree they are no longer pricey.

Originally Posted by Jack Klompus

Come on. How about this? “LifePO4 is the king of practical.”

Fun game.

The notion that LifePO4 is extra work or impractical is absurd. The work I performed was: remove crappy performing heavy LA battery and replace with lightweight and robust and powerful lithium battery. Has nothing to do with converters or solar panels etc. Its a battery.

I am not sure why LA battery users can’t admit that LifePO4 CAN BE easy, affordable, effective, and practical. Its silly.

Nothing could be more practical than dropping in a new, lighter more powerful battery that requires no maintenance. If you can’t see that as practical then I can’t help you.

LA has its pros and cons … just like lithium. But it’s certainly not the king of anything other than weight.

[BigBillSD]

Originally Posted by smeg99

Lithium batteries cost 5 times+ more than golf cart batteries from Costco. I get 5 years from golf cart batteries with minimum maintenance.

ROFL. You're living the dream.. -Bill

[Marine359]

If you don’t want to upgrade to LiFePo4, you’ve surely got your reasons. Don’t try to convince those of us who are enjoying all the benefits of them that we made a mistake. There is no logical cost argument. For the marginal additional cost of LiFePo4, the rv experience becomes easier, more comfortable, and more enjoyable; pretty similar to the experience of going from a tent to an rv. I dunno how you rationalize spending spending over $100,000 on an rv and then try to shoot down batteries that cost maybe a couple hundred more than FLA. Slays me. If you’re stuck with staying at expensive full hook up campgrounds because you have an ancient battery technology, you coulda bought lithiums for the cost of one week on the pole.

[terryiam]

Originally Posted by Jim_HiTek

I easily get 8-12 years from flooded cell batteries. The secret is using 2 oz of mineral oil per cell. And then my lackadaisical service routine isn't so important to battery life since the water stays in the cells. Doesn't hurt to have a 'smart' converter so they're not overcharged like in the old days.

That's pretty amazing to get that life.

I may do that as well...just curious...what's the chemistry behind that?

Seems hard to be true and never heard that before but willing to try!

Cheers,
Terry

[Jim_HiTek]

Originally Posted by terryiam

That's pretty amazing to get that life.

I may do that as well...just curious...what's the chemistry behind that?

Seems hard to be true and never heard that before but willing to try!

Cheers,
Terry

I'm busy today so I just copied this from my blog. There's not much chemistry as the oil floats on top of the electrolyte.

"What happens in the typical battery is you get an occasional bubble form on the plates as a chemical reaction that releases and floats to the surface of the electrolyte where it bursts. That burst is energetic, especially when ambient temperature is high or if the charger overcharges. That burst casts acid into the air inside the battery. And you’ll note that a standard lead acid battery has small holes in each of the cell caps. So if atmospheric conditions are right, that acid laden air will escape the battery and rush right to the nearest metal. And start corroding it. Over time it builds up enough that it starts corroding the more distant metals like the hold down bolts and the tray. When you add the oil, what it does is simply make that bubble less energetic when it bursts, or prevents it from reaching the surface. So the acid tends to remain in the solution rather than floating around in the air. Simple. However, there will still be some bubbles that reach the surface and burst and if conditions are right, you may lose some water from the cell, which just means you still have to do maintenance on the batteries…like add water, just not as often."

Here's the link to my battery article. I've used the mineral oil in batteries in two RVs now to extend battery life. I'm happy with it. I especially like how the oil coats the plates if I let too much water evaporate (it still does, but slowly with oil) and they come back to life when water is added to cover them again with no damage it seems.

[hclarkx]

Originally Posted by followingsea

That term describes your ability to pay not a property of the battery.

I can't agree with this. Your spending limit (ability to pay) is what it is. Whether one battery or the other is within your spending limit is a property of the battery. If one battery is $500 and the other $250, and your spending limit is $400, then the $250 battery is affordable and the $500 one is not.

[Bylandorsea]

Originally Posted by Uniblab

Okay I'll play. It's not difficult to find gently used LA (AGM) batteries from backup applications for $50 each. That's for an 80-100 amp-hour battery. I have some I bought over ten years ago running my solar landscape lighting system that are still going strong. Would I recommend a lithium battery in that application? Not a chance. Not practical (my definition of practical includes affordability). Those same batteries work great in an RV application - I used them for years. Yes they are heavier but in my 11,000lb Class-C with relatively weak gas V-10 engine I can't tell the difference of a couple hundred pounds. It was mostly a mental disadvantage to know I was lugging around the extra weight. Lithium batteries comparable to the LA ones I'm using are still 3-4x more expensive even after accounting for a max 50% discharge rate (which incidentally I have exceeded many times BTW with no apparent effect).

So if I think LA is so great, why did I go with LiFePo4 in my RV you might ask? There is no way I can justify the money I spent to have 800 amp-hours in my little RV. I didn't do it because it was practical, it was because I am a geek and like new technology, and overkill :-) You won't catch me chastising anyone for sticking with LA batteries - not everyone wants or needs the latest and greatest pricey stuff. And I'm sorry but $400 for a 100 amp-hour LiFePo4 battery is still pricey to me. When they drop to $250 (same price as two Sams club golf cart batteries), then I'll agree they are no longer pricey.

Put as well as I have seen