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02-26-2012, 12:30 PM
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#29
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Senior Member
Fleetwood Owners Club Solo Rvers Club
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: S Western Indiana
Posts: 830
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Don't know if this will help anyone else but I just discovered that Todd Engineering became Lyght Power Systems. I found quite a few of their products at R&K Products. Cannot find a main listing for them on the net yet.
I'm going to try calling and see if they have a schematic for the old main ATS in the Eagle or what they would use to replace it if I wanted to. I found a box that looks and sounds very similar is $209. I thought something like that would be a thousand bucks. To me if we can just replace this stuff since its so old and if its not cost prohibitive may take that approach. Just have to see. At least I'm finally finding more information.
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02-28-2012, 07:39 PM
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#30
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Senior Member
Fleetwood Owners Club Solo Rvers Club
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: S Western Indiana
Posts: 830
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I am probably getting in way over my head.
I now have a tone meter and a labeler for electric plus meters and testers. My tenant is loading me up on electrical testing equipment. He is guiding me but hands off too and I hope I don't mess something up. He is helping me but expecting me to learn this stuff and I'm sure trying.
It's obvious from looking at the spaghetti mess inside the ATS that stuff hasn't been working, no point trying to figue out what is what except the input and outgoing wires.
He told me to carefully label each item before taking the wiring out of it. The new box is smaller and he said the relay in it is way more efficient and better made, there are just as many hookups inside but only 3 access holes instead of 4. The DLS 45 looks about like the old one.
I now know what the wiring is coming out of my main power supply.
The bottom cord is the 50AMP input, the wires coming in from the top are Panel 1 and panel 2, which are the breakers divided into 2 wires in the main ATS, I tracked those down with the toner, then the invertor wire, and the generator wire. I have a call in to a retailer about the maint ATS to see if its interchangeable from what I have, it sure looks that way and sounds like it from the describing information. If it is I'm getting it too. Then we will have schematics for the insides of the boxes and know what goes where for future reference.
If need be we will also get a new invertor and convertor. I hope I don't screw stuff up, makes me nervous.
I have been busy for the last 2 days dealing with rentals. I'm building a small 1 bedroom house and have to go up and buy materials and see how the work is going about everyother day. Yes, I've been through lots of remodels and many many years ago hubby and I built a house ourselves. It was a nice place. We try to do all our own work, but I can't even begin to do it all anymore so have gotten help.
I also have a 2 acre yard to care for and mow at some rentals so I never get done. Work harder since retiring then I did before I think.
So hope to get an answer about the main panel, would love to replace it too, the new relays looks much smaller and better made, so likely worth it.
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02-29-2012, 08:58 AM
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#31
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Senior Member
Fleetwood Owners Club Solo Rvers Club
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: S Western Indiana
Posts: 830
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Any of you heard of a torque screwdriver? Wrenches I've heard of, but the ATS switch replacement box I got says tighten with a torque screwdriver and gives the number of pounds to tighten the screws too. Ever heard of that? I will buy one if necessary but is it really?
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02-29-2012, 10:08 AM
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#32
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,528
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They are calibrated for a small torque value (ie: in pounds). An inexpensive 1/4" drive torque wrench will most likely work but if we are talking a real small value then hand tight will most likely be ok too. [ft lbs x 12 = in lbs.] Torque screwdrivers are usually fairly expensive ( torque screwdriver | eBay)
1 ft lb = 12 inch pounds
5 ft lb = 60 in lbs
10 ft lbs = 120 inch pounds
BTW - Do not fret about getting in over your head. You passed treading water stage eons ago. Based on the information you have provided, my guess about this large ATS unit is that it dates back to the age when an inverter did not have a automatic switching relay installed so, this is more or less a 2 stage ATS. First stage selects either the shore power or generator input as supply to Primary Electrical Panel (ie panel 1). Second stage selects either Primary Electrical Panel or Inverter for input to Secondary Power Panel (Panel 2). In a modern RV, that second stage part is imbedded in the Inverter/charger.
Like figure F (bottom right) in this Todd drawing:
Dave
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03-01-2012, 09:19 AM
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#33
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Senior Member
Fleetwood Owners Club Solo Rvers Club
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: S Western Indiana
Posts: 830
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I forwarded this to the guy helping me, he has a much better understanding of this stuff and this might help as we move along. I may have to end up getting electrical done but at least we can fix and eliminate a lot of issues as we go along. I'm trying to see if we can replace the main ATS panel or if I need to have it gone over and possibly rebuilt. There are a couple of companies that rebuild the old Todd boards so I may go that route, have to see what we come up with.
Right now our main emphasis is getting a battery charger up and running. I can use the coach on 120 but nothing is recharging the batteries while its on electric and I don't want to get them down so far they can't be recharged and are ruined. It likely charges when driving but that can't happen till my husband gets the new AC's in after April 1, unless I pay to have them done and as he says that's an easy install and will save us about $400 to $500. But then thinking about that likely the alternator only charges the chassis batteries I would think.
I also have a new coach/chassis switch coming. You have to turn it on for anything to work inside and to start the coach but its for 12 volt as it is now as 120 isn't converting. With the 50 AMP plugged in 120 works but still need the convertor working. The chassis button is fine, the coach one has been getting worse and worse and now won't work. Thankfully FLeetwood was able to get this part and is in route. But still all this is just running stuff off the batteries so not good.
We also have to get converter working so we can convert 120 to 12 volt working and from what I'm reading the DLS 45 is a charger and convertor. I really don't care if its an automatic transfer or like my Winnie, I had to plug into another socket to get power from the gennie so that would be fine too.
So getting my charger converter is the next step and then getting my switch for chassis/coach is necessar too.
I know I keep repeating this but trying to imprint it in the brain.
There is a live receptacle in the main power supply bay and I saw something plugged in there. Finally figured out what that is, has to be the engine block heater, found that in the manual.
That bay contains the
50 amp power cord
cable television
telephone hookup
automatic power selector box
engine block heater
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03-01-2012, 10:24 AM
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#34
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,528
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Do you have a stand alone battery charger? If not they are not that expensive (Walmart). Simple 2 wire connection to battery and can be used to keep the batteries charged until you work through the converter issues. If you decide to get one, get an automatic one as you do not need to add the monitoring hassle to your lists of things to keep up with. You do not need a large one. Simple 10 amp will do just fine.
Dave
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03-01-2012, 11:21 AM
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#35
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Senior Member
Fleetwood Owners Club Solo Rvers Club
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: S Western Indiana
Posts: 830
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I have a big roll around one but I have to charge the chassis batteries, then charge the coach batteries to keep them up.
I'm hoping the coach aren't to far down now, I don't know how old they are. The 2 new Interstate batteries were $300, but needed, one was from last year the back one was 6 years old.
My husband was all interested in going over the engine and looking at the roof, tranny, and generator. We saw the fridge was on and working, the lights and items and we didn't hook anything up to 120. I think the microwave even worked at that time, seems like I turned it on. The guy that sold it to us, sure saw us coming. Probably thought we were real hayseends, guess we were.
Now I'm wondering how old the inside back tires are on the duals, hubby couldn't see the dates they were between the tires so I'm betting they were old too. I will have them pulled and checked before I drive very far.
Well thankfully we can afford to fix it, not that we wanted to have to do all this but we can. I bought my Winnie from PPL and had it inspected before buying and knew quite a bit had to be fixed, its wasn't cheap and it was a 2005, but I had it all done. I'm not sure you can buy a used TT or motorhome without it needing something. Well, ours don't when we sell, or we tell people what is needed, but that's just us.
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03-01-2012, 12:13 PM
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#36
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,528
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You will both know the rig well and know it is in good condition by the time your done. Don't fret, you know you bought something with good bones but needs some TLC by someone who actually cares what condition it is in.
You can charge one set one day. The other set the next day. Though I have no clue what sort of parasitic loads you may have, both should stay charged fairly well for several days (weeks if no real loads on them and in good condition). Charge a set up then check voltage the next day to see discharge rate to establish number of days between charge cycles.
For safety, recharge if they get below 70% capacity. Simple solution while you work through the other issues.
Dave
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03-01-2012, 12:15 PM
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#37
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Senior Member
Fleetwood Owners Club Solo Rvers Club
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: S Western Indiana
Posts: 830
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We are working on it now. Got that pesky switch on, it will stay once on.
Mr E has tracked the invertor to the battery cable that is disconnected, we figure the invertor does not work and are not concerned with it at this point. Now working on convertor/battery charger and where it goes.
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03-01-2012, 12:18 PM
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#38
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,528
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What Brand/Model Inverter (did I miss [or forget] that along the way?). Many of these are actually Inverter/Chargers.
Dave
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03-01-2012, 01:33 PM
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#39
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Senior Member
Fleetwood Owners Club Solo Rvers Club
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: S Western Indiana
Posts: 830
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I need to draw up all we have done and connected.
I am SO EXCITED. The old wiring that has been added under the bed we are going to remove, it was an add.
We removed the old convertor charger in the bay and put in the new DLS 45 with Iota 4 Smart Controller. There is a block it hooks into the top said Auxillary battery, middle alternator, bottom batteries, not exact need to look again but its behind the converter/charger.
When we hooked the top and bottom red wire in the Smart Controller was just on or floating as they are fully charged, so we were hooked to both but it was "floating". We knew the coach batteries were way down, so he unhooked the top red wire and left the bottom one in only and the bottom or coach batteries are charging. You can tell how many cells by the flashes on the smart minder, so it was flashing 12, which means its charging all 4 batteries. I used the meter to check bottom or coach batteries and they were a 12.93. The indicator panel inside indicates almost full so that was successful.
Mr E said we could get another convertor/charger and hook to the top to charge the chassis batteries only, but I'm thinking the motor charges them, have to check the manual, I think it says. Also I have the switch up front that will connect both sets of batteries to boost starting power when needed.
We are not concerned with the inverter at this point, we don't think it works anyway, doesn't appear to by testing. And I'm not interested in running 120 off 12 at this time.
So next is hooking up the inside ATS, and trying to find out about a new or rebuilt outside ATS main panel. Then hopefully see if everything will run and switch back and forth as needed. What an adventure. I'm giving him a months rent off and that is small payment for this.
Hubby is on his own on the engine, I'm not sure I want to know about diesels right now. A lot for an old lady to absorb!!
A good day, off to check on little house being built. I completed our taxes last night and submitted to the company accts. (I was an accountant before I retired) And today is beautiful!!
Thanks Dave for your help too. Tomorrow either work on motorhome again or clear the fencing out of my garden so I can till and start planting.
Later!!
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03-01-2012, 02:45 PM
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#40
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,528
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Ahh yes spring planting. It is coming up fast!
If in the future you want to keep the chassis battery charged from the coach system, then you can either get a Trik-L-Start (3 wire hookup) or a BIRD controller (controls Aux Start Relay [Battery Boost]). That way both battery banks are maintained while on shorepower. Yes, chassis battery is charged by engine. It is when parked that trouble can crop up due to parasitic loads (clocks, ECUs, radio memory, step controller, etc.) bringing the chassis battery down. These devices just allow the float mode of the new converter to be applied to both battery banks.
Dave
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03-01-2012, 05:51 PM
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#41
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Senior Member
Fleetwood Owners Club Solo Rvers Club
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: S Western Indiana
Posts: 830
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While I was gone Mr E came over and checked the batteries, he said they were at 13.07 so about full charge we think.
The IQ controller and the DLS 45 did that in about 2 hours, good deal. Now its suppose to go to the float stage when they are fully charged.
I'm debating on getting one for the chassis batteries too. I realize I can do a full disconnect of both batteries to stop parasitic drains. If I have another on there when I plug up they ought to come up to speed pretty quickly if this is any indicator and if I don't need it all I have to do is unplug it, I would then have minders on both.
My husband got me a real nice portable hand carry battery jumper. I had to use it on the Winnie quite a few times to start it, it had enough power. I would forget and leave something on and run down the batteries. Haven't tried on this one to see if it will do it. I will carry it with me should have tried it while the batteries were down.
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03-01-2012, 07:57 PM
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#42
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,528
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The voltage values you list seem odd if they are being made with charger running so, I went and looked at the IQ4 manual ( http://www.iotaengineering.com/pplib/IQ4manual.pdf). You also said in post 39 that the LED was flashing 12. Looking at Figure B (LED Indicator Chart) 12 flashes indicate 24 volts. That would mean all 4 6 volt house batteries are all connected in series. Is that true? Typically, 24 volt systems only apply to bus conversions or long haul diesel tractors. Here is one version of a 24volt system
Each 12VDC battery set (A1/A2 and B1/B2) in that 24VDC drawing is a pair of 6 volt batteries in series. Even though there are eight 6VDC batteries in that configuration, The IQ4 would flash 12 times for that 24VDC configuration.
The normal 6 volt RV connection is on the right side of this drawing:
If connected as in the rightside drawing, then, per the IQ4 manual, there should only be 6 flashes (12VDC configuration) on the IQ4 LED.
For a 12 volt battery configuration like on the right side drawing, the charger would be puttng out the following levels for each mode:
Bulk - 14.8VDC
Absorbtion - 14.2VDC
Float - 13.56VDC
If you turn the power off then read the battery voltage immediately without draining off the surface charge (headlights on for about 2 minutes) then it will be much higher then it actually is and is not an accurate indication. Refer to the the table in my post 36 above for at rest values. If the charger is still ON, then the levels will be the bulk, absorbtion, or float values above.
Dave
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