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Old 03-14-2022, 06:22 AM   #1
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Surge Guard/ATS 40250 - No 50A but 30A OK

We plugged in at a new Shore Power after a move of parks. No ATS 'Thunk', or power into the coach. Went thru the normal checking of the pedestal, which seems good.

Started the Generator, and no 50A passing thru the 40250 Surge Guard either.

Plugged into Shore Power 30A, and ATS 'Thunk', and 30A power flowing.

No reset that I'm aware of on the Surge Guard/ATS 40250. Thinking a 'chip' has gone bad, and knocked out that side of the unit? I was provided a work around that would basically 'lock' the unit into 50A Shore Power mode (Remove the cover, and wedge the plastic button from Shore Power side down.), and I have a spare 50A Progressive Shore Power plugin unit, to protect from surges and Low/High voltage. Only down side, is no Generator power doing this. (Well, suppose I could also 'lock' the Generator side button down too, and only run the Generator when NOT on Shore Power(?).

We have a US Warranty Extended Warranty, which of course takes several days of back and forth with a repair facility to hopefully get approval... And we're in traveling mode for a few months, with reservation cancelation fees along the way.

Or, I could eat the cost of $900 + for replacement unit, and install it when we're in a park for a few days... And no help from the EW.

====

Opinions, and other suggestions, please!

TIA,
Smitty
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Old 03-14-2022, 02:51 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smitty77 View Post
We plugged in at a new Shore Power after a move of parks. No ATS 'Thunk', or power into the coach. Went thru the normal checking of the pedestal, which seems good.

Started the Generator, and no 50A passing thru the 40250 Surge Guard either.

Plugged into Shore Power 30A, and ATS 'Thunk', and 30A power flowing.

No reset that I'm aware of on the Surge Guard/ATS 40250. Thinking a 'chip' has gone bad, and knocked out that side of the unit? I was provided a work around that would basically 'lock' the unit into 50A Shore Power mode (Remove the cover, and wedge the plastic button from Shore Power side down.), and I have a spare 50A Progressive Shore Power plugin unit, to protect from surges and Low/High voltage. Only down side, is no Generator power doing this. (Well, suppose I could also 'lock' the Generator side button down too, and only run the Generator when NOT on Shore Power(?).

We have a US Warranty Extended Warranty, which of course takes several days of back and forth with a repair facility to hopefully get approval... And we're in traveling mode for a few months, with reservation cancelation fees along the way.

Or, I could eat the cost of $900 + for replacement unit, and install it when we're in a park for a few days... And no help from the EW.

====

Opinions, and other suggestions, please!

TIA,
Smitty
The question is do you have a deductible? My expensive unit went out and I replaced it with this one which costs $160 and you can get it within one day with Amazon.

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I also have two surge protectors, one hard mounted and one at the end of the plug.

Progressive Industries HW50C Hardwired EMS Surge & Electrical Protection- 50 Amps and the plug type,

and this one at the plug end:

rv Surge Protector 50 amp, POWSAF rv Power Defender Voltage Protector/Monitor with Surge Protection(4100 Joules), Designed with Easy to Use Handles…
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Old 03-14-2022, 03:34 PM   #3
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Don't lock down both shore and generator relays in the ATS. Should have an interlock preventing that anyway.

Shore power will backfeed to the generator, possibly burning things out.
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Old 03-14-2022, 04:02 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by twinboat View Post
Don't lock down both shore and generator relays in the ATS. Should have an interlock preventing that anyway.

Shore power will backfeed to the generator, possibly burning things out.
GREAT ADVICE
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Old 03-14-2022, 04:54 PM   #5
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Thanks Ted & Twinboat - AND YES, the Locking Both down, was certainly faulty thinking on my part...

After posting this, and a bit more noodling while out with the wife for a few hours. I kept going back to the 30A 'Thunk' of the ATS part of the Surge Guard working. So when we got back to the RV, I turned off the 30A at the pole, started the Generator up again, and set the timer for 7 minutes... Within under a minute, power was flowing thru the ATS/Surge Guard and Pass Thru Mode of both (Dual 3K Xantrex's.) Inverters, and in Charge Mode.

Yesterday, two times I tried the Generator, and know I waited for at least two minutes the second time...

Figure somehow I confused the brain of the SurgeGuard unit, and it just took sometime to simmer down and return to semi normal! We were also able to successfully test a 50A Shore Power connection a bit later (Generator off), and 'Thunk' 50A flowed thru... I did talk to another longer term park member. He commented power could at times be 'spotty'. So when I checked it made it was good, but could have been twitchy when the Surge Guard was analyzing it - and not passing it onto the ATS? (Who knows!)

So I seem to have a non problem at this time... My favorite kind of problem!

I did have a new unit ordered via Amazon, as the more I thought about a few months trip with a MacGyver'd locked down button/tab - well, just did not seem like a good idea. And with parts shortages, figured I should get it while could get it... I tried to cancel the order, but was too late. So will offer to pay for shipping to return it to Amazon, as I did order it. I have up to 30 days to do so, once it's delivered. So I may hang onto it for a week to make sure no repeats of yesterday occur...

I like the Progressive Units, especially the warranty! But due to the ease of the 'drop in' current Surge Guard, and overnight availability, I elected to stay with the 'all in one' ATS/EMS Surge Guard.

Thanks to all three of you for your input,
Smitty
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Old 03-16-2022, 04:18 PM   #6
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Well, I do believe I have a problem. We moved parks yesterday, and no problems when plugging in. Nice 'thunk' of the ATS, and all things normal. (And Note: We've always been very disciplined on turning off as much internal demands for electricity as possible, before connecting to Shore Power, where the 'thunk' switches power form Generator to Shore Power. To avoid burning the contacts points. No AC, Aqua Hot on Electric, etc. Sure, it's a big coach, with dual inverters and residential fridge and lots of other smaller draws... But no big ticket items on!).

Today we changed sites, as we extended our stay a few days. And at the new site, no 'thunk' with 50A plugin... And again, waited 10-15mins, and tried Generator - and no cigar - no power coming in from Generator either. Turned off the Generator, and plugged into 30A - and again, THUNK, and power 30A flowing to the coach.

Waited about 90 mins. Then went out and turned off the 30A, and move the 50A plug back into it's receptacle. THUNK, followed too soon to call a second, thunk! (So, Loud Thunk, and just behind it, softer thunk...). And yep, now power flowing Pass Thru to the coach, and Inverters On... (I did not think about looking at 'Non Inverter Side, to see if 'some' power was coming in...(?)).

Now back on 30 amp...

And of course, the replacement unit came yesterday to the park, and I had it back to UPS for a return that afternoon. (Instead of holding onto it for a few more days, unopened, to make sure all was good. Which was a change from the original thoughts, as our travel plans also changed since this post... So seemed after a successful 'two plug in's to 50A' again - to go ahead and send it back now, while in a location with nearby UPS Store!).

===

So OK. What confuses me the most, and I will call and talk with Southwire(?) tomorrow, if I can reach a human! Is why the 30A is Thunking? Do the ATS only Thunk 'One Leg' for 30A and 'Two Legs(Lines)' for 50A?

Could 'One of my Legs/Lines contacts be going bad? The normal loud THUNK of 50A on my last attempt, followed by a quickly staggering softer thunk - makes me wonder if the one of the contacts points is in trouble?

===

Enough speculation. I'm here for help from some of the 'veteran's of knowledge' on these things!!

TIA for any recommendations on either what to check. Or. To just go ahead and see if I can get Amazon to send me another one of the same units - that i just returned saying 'No longer needed...'!

Best,
Smitty

(And note, again: I will still call for input from TRC Surge Guard (Southwire).)
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Old 03-16-2022, 04:45 PM   #7
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The way the transfer switch works it senses voltage on one of the legs, if that leg isn't active then it won't turn on either leg. So if one of your legs was dead then the 50 amps could half work, or not work at all depending which leg is dead. but if the 30 amp plug is live which is only one leg then dog bone will power both of your 50 amp legs and you up with 30 amps.

On multiple occasions I have had problems with one of the 50 amp legs, so used the 30 amp dog bone.
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Old 03-16-2022, 05:22 PM   #8
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I may have missed it skimming through the post. Sure the 50a is ok in the pedestal? May be a bad or missing leg. 30a is ok
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Old 03-16-2022, 05:37 PM   #9
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Unless you tested the power at the pedestal on those sites where the 50 amp was thunk-less you don't really know if you have a problem or if the pedestal had the problem.
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Old 03-17-2022, 07:39 AM   #10
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Podivin - Thanks. I have not tested this poles power, but did in the previous park, and it was OK. And sure, I will test it to be sure. (New park 2 years old. And we watched a Class A DP pull out before moved over. But yes, always good to validate.)

vsheetz(Hi Vince - Still my neighbor in San Diego region?) Yes to the 30A coming in fine. The last test with the 50A, is what thru me again, as it THUNK, then the little thunk as it must have disengaged real fast again.

dssl - Thanks. Good explanation, and as I understand 50 vs 30 coming into the coach.

==

It again is the Generator not feeding in 50A too, which has nothing to do with a bad shore power Leg or Ground of a 50A that adds to the confusion. Possibly the 40250 did detect something it did not like, and I just did not wait long enough after unplugging the 50A - before starting and trying the generator?

I'll go do some homework with Multi Meter again, and confirm the 50A outlet is OK. Then unplug the 30A and wait 30 mins before starting up the generator for another test.

Another question, one that I'm not sure of, does the 40250 'test' the purity of the power feed from the generator too? Or is it assumed to be a clean power source, and feeds on thru?

If I don't update within the next two hours of this post. Assume the Shore Power 50A tested good, and I'm still not getting 50A from either Shore Power or Generator.

Thanks again... Sometimes typing things out - helps sort out the thinking!
Smitty
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Old 03-17-2022, 08:33 AM   #11
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Well less then an hour (A phone call meeting went way shorter then expected!).

Multi-Meter shows OK on L-1 and L-2 (124V/125V) combined 247V. Ground had a little chatter, fluctuating .07 to .08 - but I chalk that up to 0.

Our previous coach, had separate ATS and a TRC SurgeGuard that had the ByPass key. I bought an at the pedestal EMS/Guard, Progressive unit with the Digital Readouts, from a fellow RV'er coming off the road. (It was 7 months old, and used on about 5 trips.) Went ahead and plugged it into Shore Power to see what it saw too, same basic readings on L1/L2 and E-0 error code, as all OK.

I turned of the 30A, unplugged the 50A coach feed, and plugged it into the Progressive 50A female. Then again flipped on the 50A Circuit Breaker. Still no 'THUNK' at all. (I did the 30A off, and change of plug to the Progressive unit, and 50A on - within probably 30 seconds or so. Perhaps I need to wait a bit longer, to let the 40250 coach ATS/EMS reset?).

Waited turned things back around to the 30A, and THUNK again. Waited about 5 minutes. Turned off the 30A. Waited another 5 minutes or so, and then plugged the 50A from the coach back into the Shore Power 50A receptacle - THUNK, coach now has power at 50A again.

Do two EMS's in line make a difference? That would keep the coaches SurgeGuard from allowing the 50A two legs to flow thru?

DW asked me not to 'Mess with things!', leave it alone. But something does not seem to be working right, consistently.

One other thought. We did have a longer Shore Power cord installed last year, as I no longer wanted to lug around the 20' 50A Extension Cord we had... Suppose it would not hurt to take off the box, and check to make sure all the wires are nice and tightly snugged in? But, that would not explain the 50A from Generator not flowing?

These 40250 EMS/ATS combo's do have Circuit Boards inside of them. Reading the documentation, I'd think waiting 5 minutes is more then enough between a problem being found, and then 'clearing' before trying again from another source?

Going to call TRC to see if they can add any input...

Could just be a weak ATS starting to go on me, but then it 'should' default to the Generator side?

Ramblings over... Opinions still welcomed!

Smitty
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Old 03-17-2022, 03:56 PM   #12
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Neither the generator or shore power will be connected until the ATS detects voltage. The generator is selected over shore power if it detects voltage on both.

I know this from experience. I have my two generator outputs connected together on L1, but the way my transfer switch is wired I need voltage on the L2 to get it to work.
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