Winterizing

[LarryJB]

I have been wondering about at what point damage will actually happen to your coach if it were left unattended and un-winterized. I have always been very cautious about this so when my coach has not been fully winterized and the forecast calls for temps to be below 34* I will turn the Aquahot electric element on in the late afternoon. If the temps are forecast to be below about 26* i will also turn on the burner. I have been thinking this is a little overkill and that I could get away with moving those temps down a little. My suspicion is that it also has to do with how long the temps will be below freezing and if there will be wind to blow that cold air into the far reaches of the coach. For instance, I have doubts that even if the temps got below freezing for 4-6 hours eventually reaching 25* on a calm night tha anything in the coach would actually freeze enough to actually do damage. I have always been too chicken to risk it though. Does anyone have any science to prove or disprove what I am saying?
BTW: Please don't answer with the "Why risk it?" answer, I am just wondering what the actual point is where damage will likely occur.

[Concord]

Pardon the pun, but we are on "thin ice" here. Yes, if the water (coach) has been warm, and it's not windy, you have some time.. Even days. However, you must realize that the damage occurs at the freezing point... -when the water crystallizes. Colder than that, and the ice actually shrinks.
When it's close to freezing, I either run the furnace heat, or winterize.

[LarryJB]

Originally Posted by Concord

Pardon the pun, but we are on "thin ice" here. Yes, if the water (coach) has been warm, and it's not windy, you have some time.. Even days. However, you must realize that the damage occurs at the freezing point... -when the water crystallizes. Colder than that, and the ice actually shrinks.
When it's close to freezing, I either run the furnace heat, or winterize.

I do the same, but this is just for the sake of discussion. So you are saying that another factor in this equation is the previous days temp as well. If it was in the 50s or 60s during the day as opposed to being in the upper 30s all day would make a big difference as well. That makes perfect sense.

[Waiter21]

I have doubts that even if the temps got below freezing for 4-6 hours eventually reaching 25* on a calm night tha anything in the coach would actually freeze enough to actually do damage.

There isn't a "freeze enough" point. When the water freezes, it expands by about 10%.

I suspect on a calm night there are places inside the MH that don't drop below freezing.

It would be difficult to predict exactly how the heat conducts out of any particular pipe or component and then reaches the freezing temperature. Obviously a pipe thats at 33 degrees and gets exposed to 25 degree blowing wind will reach the freezing point much faster than the same pipe thats buried inside a insulated wall.

Here are two examples of fail to winterize

This one we discovered immediately after we purchased our Southwind. The gray tank drain pipe burst. I suspect that water in the valve and in the tank froze first. plugging up both ends of the pipe. Then when the water in the pipe froze, it couldn't expand, so it burst the pipe.

Gray tank water leak – 1999 Southwind 35S

This one happened last year. This is a low point drain that didn't get drained properly.

Winterize – FAIL – Broken water pipe – 1999 Southwind 35S


..

[FL420]

Originally Posted by Concord

Colder than that, and the ice actually shrinks.

Say what!!!!!
Please provide your source for that information.

[Concord]

Originally Posted by FL420

Say what!!!!!
Please provide your source for that information.

https://www.physicsforums.com/thread...ing-ice.74593/

[grindstone01]

If water is at low pressure in a pipe, then it won't swell to pipe bursting pressures until it get's into the low 20F's. Now if water in the pipe is at high pressure, say 60psi, then pipe bursting pressure could be attained at a warmer temp, say 28F.

[Concord]

Pretty tough to ignore physics. (P*V)/T=k. Pressure times volume divided by temperature is equal to a constant. The exception being that water crystallizes at freezing, which makes it expand at the molecular level. After that, it shrinks as it gets colder just like everything else.

[Spdracr39]

I run about the same program as the OP with the lower temps protocol. If it is 40 plus during the day and down to 25 or so at night for only a couple of hours I don't worry too much. Closer to freezing in the day time or below 25 at night and the heater goes on. If I am leaving the bus for a few days I turn the heater on just in case.

[FL420]

Originally Posted by Concord

https://www.physicsforums.com/thread...ing-ice.74593/

Can you provide a more credible source than an internet forum of people of unknown qualifications expressing opinions on the subject?

[Concord]

http://www1.lsbu.ac.uk/water/density_anomalies.html

Best I can find.

[grindstone01]

Originally Posted by Concord

Pretty tough to ignore physics. (P*V)/T=k. Pressure times volume divided by temperature is equal to a constant. The exception being that water crystallizes at freezing, which makes it expand at the molecular level. After that, it shrinks as it gets colder just like everything else.

NO! Ice will expand when it gets colder, that is why it floats. Ice will be less dense than water, if ice were to shrink, then it would sink as it became denser.


(Internet search)

Does ice expand as it gets colder?
Ice, on the other hand, is very unusual in that, as it gets colder, although the particles are certainly vibrating less for the reason explained above, it nonetheless expands or gets larger. The reason for this is due to the strange shape of water molecules. ... And so ice expands when it freezes.

[Concord]

Between 0 and -4 C water expands as it crystalizes. The rest of the temperature spectrum it behaves a other elements... Expands with heat, contracts with cold.

You are welcome to believe what you like. My job is NOT to teach you remedial physics.

[LarryJB]

Where is Bill Nye the science guy when we need him?