Xantrex Freedom 458 inverter/charger problems

[PRW1066]

Hi guys,

Early last year, we bought a retired ambulance and flipped it into an RV. Took it to the western US last fall, put in nearly 8,000 miles in about 10 weeks.
We're now within a few days of going back out for a couple of months, and I've been working on the electrical side of things.

We have a Xantrex Freedom 458 2500W inverter, 500W of solar and a 200AH lithium battery. All was well until a few days ago.

All our 12V stuff is working fine. Inverting to 120V is also working fine. But when I connect shore power, the inverter starts making a loud hum, the cooling fan comes on and the ground wire gets extremely hot. Within a few seconds, the breaker I installed between the inverter and the positive bus bar will trip.

I disconnected everything except the battery and the inverter, and tried again. Same result. I then disconnected the inverter from the lithium battery, and rolled out one of our AGM batteries (I kept everything from our upgrade). I connected the AGM battery to the inverter, plugged in shore power and it worked fine. I checked the voltage and it was showing 13.2-13.3 and climbing just a tad. Inverter stayed quiet.

I reconnected the lithium battery to the inverter and put my meter's test leads on the battery bus bars, bypassing the breaker. Again, nothing else connected, either physically or wirelessly. The meter kept bouncing between 12.8V up to 15.5 or so. Then it would pause for a time and start all over again.

BUT.....if I disconnect the battery from the inverter while it's connected to shore power, I measure a constant 14.4 coming from the inverter.

SO....it seems to do what it's supposed to when connected to an AGM but not a lithium battery.

I should also mention that we have the basic control panel for the inverter and it's stopped working as well.

Any ideas?? I REALLY don't wanna have to replace this inverter, especially within days of heading back out!!

[shootist]

Sounds like it's burning up. Back the settings down. Lithium batteries charge completely different than lead acid. They charge at very high amperage and at full charge the charger shuts down. Lead acid batteries top off and can be maintained with a float charge. Never float a lithium. 3.5 volts per cell is fully charged on a lifepo4 if that's what you have. Anything higher is a waste of time as it is nothing more than a surface charge. Hours to put in and seconds to discharge down to 3.5.

[Archer2]

I don’t believe that your Freedom 458 Inverter/Charger is designed to charge Lithium-Ion batteries, the charging voltage/current profile is completely different that what is needed for Lithium batteries. Everything I can find says that the Freedom 458 unit is ONLY for deep-cycle Lead-Acid and AGM batteries. In addition to it not working and possibly harming the batteries, you may be creating a serious fire hazard by using that Xantrex 458 connected to your Lithium batteries.

[shootist]

Originally Posted by Archer2

I don’t believe that your Freedom 458 Inverter/Charger is designed to charge Lithium-Ion batteries, the charging voltage/current profile is completely different that what is needed for Lithium batteries. Everything I can find says that the Freedom 458 unit is ONLY for deep-cycle Lead-Acid and AGM batteries. In addition to it not working and possibly harming the batteries, you may be creating a serious fire hazard by using that Xantrex 458 connected to your Lithium batteries.

It is user programmable.

[Persistent]

We have a Xantrex Freedom 458 2500W inverter, 500W of solar and a 200AH lithium battery. All was well until a few days ago.

All our 12V stuff is working fine. Inverting to 120V is also working fine. But when I connect shore power, the inverter starts making a loud hum, the cooling fan comes on and the ground wire gets extremely hot. Within a few seconds, the breaker I installed between the inverter and the positive bus bar will trip.

I disconnected everything except the battery and the inverter, and tried again. Same result. I then disconnected the inverter from the lithium battery, and rolled out one of our AGM batteries (I kept everything from our upgrade). I connected the AGM battery to the inverter, plugged in shore power and it worked fine. I checked the voltage and it was showing 13.2-13.3 and climbing just a tad. Inverter stayed quiet.

I reconnected the lithium battery to the inverter and put my meter's test leads on the battery bus bars, bypassing the breaker. Again, nothing else connected, either physically or wirelessly. The meter kept bouncing between 12.8V up to 15.5 or so. Then it would pause for a time and start all over again.

BUT.....if I disconnect the battery from the inverter while it's connected to shore power, I measure a constant 14.4 coming from the inverter.

SO....it seems to do what it's supposed to when connected to an AGM but not a lithium battery.

I should also mention that we have the basic control panel for the inverter and it's stopped working as well.


The symptoms do appear to indicate a high charging rate when connected to the lithium batteries. Please post make and model of the lithium battery.

A circuit breaker between the Magnum and the battery should not trip while battery charging. Usually it is sized to handle high current while inverting. What is the size of the circuit breaker? What is the size of the wire, both positive and negative?

Charging at 30 amps maximum should not trip the circuit breaker. The Magnum should limit charging to no more than 30 amps. See page 28 in manual for proper fusing.

What is the make and model of the lithium battery?
Does the lithium battery have an internal BMI?
Does it have an external BMI?

"Drop in" lithium batteries have a built in battery management system (BMI). Generally they draw high power for long periods, decreasing as charge level rises.

Different BMI will behave differently. Many BMI will disconnect charging due to various measured conditions. They may monitor temperature, current, and other things. A single internal cell may overheat or go over voltage and cause a disconnect. Disconnects are sudden and may appear to be random.

When battery voltage drops to 12.8 the Magnum is probably delivering the maximum current it is capable of. When it rises to 15.5 volts, the BMI probably disconnected.

Normally the Magnum should not jump to 15.5 volts. The table on page 20 of the Magnum manual says it can get to 15.2 when battery temperature is 30 degrees or less and the controls are set for wet cells.

https://xantrex.com/wp-content/uploa...ers-Manual.pdf

Generally, the temperature sensor should be disconnected for use with lithium batteries. Any "equalizing" setting should be turned "off" for use with lithium BMI. The Magnum can lower the charging voltage to 12.8 if temperature sensor reads 120 degrees. 12.8 it too low for proper lithium charging.

A failed remote control module can do many bad things. I would disconnect it or replace it.

[Archer2]

I’m a little confused. I am by no means up to speed on Lithium batteries but the Xantrex manual says in several places that only wet-cell, Gel or AGM batteries are suitable for use. Do lithium batteries mimic one of the other types of batteries for charging purposes or maybe the lithiums have some way built-in to manage their own charging behaviour?
I see also where the charging profile is user adjustable but the only options I see are to set for wet, gel 1, gel 2 or AGM. I don’t see anywhere that you can set custom values for different charging profiles.
Can someone educate me so I don’t ask dumb questions?

[shootist]

Originally Posted by Archer2

I’m a little confused. I am by no means up to speed on Lithium batteries but the Xantrex manual says in several places that only wet-cell, Gel or AGM batteries are suitable for use. Do lithium batteries mimic one of the other types of batteries for charging purposes or maybe the lithiums have some way built-in to manage their own charging behaviour?
I see also where the charging profile is user adjustable but the only options I see are to set for wet, gel 1, gel 2 or AGM. I don’t see anywhere that you can set custom values for different charging profiles.
Can someone educate me so I don’t ask dumb questions?

There is a user programmable setting. You have to arbitrarily pic a charge time and or manually monitor it. It's a 100 or 120 amp charger.

[PRW1066]

Thanks for the info and suggestions guys! The 458 doesn't specify that it'll charge LiFePo batteries, but I'd seen that some people were suggesting using the Gel setting b/c it was similar to the settings needed for lithium.

Whether or not this is true, this setup WAS working fine awhile back. I think something has happened to the inverter on the circuit between external 120V power and the 12V charge circuit.

I reconnected my 120V circuits through breakers and tested the inverter off of the battery. It worked fine. So the inverter part of the box seems to be ok; it's just the charging side that's messed up.

Oh, and when I said that our control panel wasn't working, apparently something internal on THAT circuit is messed up as well. I found and bought a used control panel, identical to the one we have, and it does the same thing the original one did.

All in all, even though I'm sad to lose the shore power charging capability, the fault is on the side that's the least important to us. We boondock 95% of the time, so we would rarely need to plug in shore power to recharge.

If we find that we need the shore power charging capability more later, we'll figure out what to do then.

[Persistent]

I reread the manual and found this note.

"Voltage shutdown also occurs for a high battery condition at 15.5 volts. Operation will resume automatically when the battery voltage drops below 15.5 volts. Check all DC sources on the system for the reason for the excessive voltage."

The manual also says.

"NOTE: The acceptance stage timer is not used when Link Instruments control the charger. Refer to the Link Owner's Manual."

Lithium battery BMI can cause a "Load Dump" when they disconnect for any reason. The Magnum can possibly emit a high voltage spike when a load dump occurs. The spike may cause the Link Instruments control panel to shut down to protect itself.

Any device with coils like a transformer can cause a high voltage spike when high current is suddenly interrupted. Lithium BMI have safety disconnect protections that cause sudden disconnect. A high speed voltage recording device is required to see a load dump voltage spike.

Please post battery make and model and if it has an external BMI, the BMI make and model.

There is a device used with alternators that clamps a load dump. It may or may not work on the 12 volt output of the Magnum.

[shootist]

Originally Posted by Persistent

I reread the manual and found this note.

"Voltage shutdown also occurs for a high battery condition at 15.5 volts. Operation will resume automatically when the battery voltage drops below 15.5 volts. Check all DC sources on the system for the reason for the excessive voltage."

The manual also says.

"NOTE: The acceptance stage timer is not used when Link Instruments control the charger. Refer to the Link Owner's Manual."

Lithium battery BMI can cause a "Load Dump" when they disconnect for any reason. The Magnum can possibly emit a high voltage spike when a load dump occurs. The spike may cause the Link Instruments control panel to shut down to protect itself.

Any device with coils like a transformer can cause a high voltage spike when high current is suddenly interrupted. Lithium BMI have safety disconnect protections that cause sudden disconnect. A high speed voltage recording device is required to see a load dump voltage spike.

Please post battery make and model and if it has an external BMI, the BMI make and model.

There is a device used with alternators that clamps a load dump. It may or may not work on the 12 volt output of the Magnum.

It's not a magnum.

[twinboat]

Originally Posted by Archer2

I’m a little confused. I am by no means up to speed on Lithium batteries but the Xantrex manual says in several places that only wet-cell, Gel or AGM batteries are suitable for use. Do lithium batteries mimic one of the other types of batteries for charging purposes or maybe the lithiums have some way built-in to manage their own charging behaviour?
I see also where the charging profile is user adjustable but the only options I see are to set for wet, gel 1, gel 2 or AGM. I don’t see anywhere that you can set custom values for different charging profiles.
Can someone educate me so I don’t ask dumb questions?

When you add the remote, user programmable features are avalable.

Look in the remote instructions.

[Archer2]

@TwinBoat, I see it now. Thanks for the assist.

[dale1]

So? is the zantrax 458 compatible with Lithium batteries? thanks, dale

[PRW1066]

Turns out that it is! Our problem was a weird grounding issue. Once I solved that, the issue went away. The inverter charges off shore power just fine.