Bio-fuels, will they ever be cost effective?

[Don Rob]

There has been a lot of talk about bio-fuels over the last few yrs. I question if they will work, or help the environment. I did a paper, back when I was in school, in the 1970s. Most of the material I used was from a Nat Geo article of future energy sources. I tried to find it, Nat Geo does not go that far back. But, Fusion and bio-fuels were two of the most promising new sources of energy, as I remember. Fusion has obviously not worked and neither has
bio-fuels.

According to the History Channel show, Modern Marvels: Corn production, it
takes a gal of dino fuel to grow a gal of bio-fuel. There is no net gain in the
process and that ways Ethanol has to be subsidized. The idea was first get
the Ethanol industry started, then they will find more ways to be efficient.
This has not happened, not that I have heard about anyway. Even though
research has gone on since the 70s. Here is what I feel the reason is.

Dino fuel, is decayed plant matter, that accumulated over millions of yrs
and is millions of yrs old. That's why dino is far more stable the bio-fuels.
Ethanol has to trucked, to gas stations. It can't be put in pipelines and then
be used as a motor fuel. It's unstable and changes if put in a pipeline. Dino
is by definition, millions of yrs old and thus stable. It is also not clear, bio-fuels pollute less than dino fuels. That's now a matter of debate. I question
if man can produce something, in one growing season, that is stable, cost effective. Sugar cane is 3 time more efficient, in making fuel than is corn.
sugar cane also grows like a weed, 365 days a yr in Brazil. It does not make
suitable fodder (food for livestock), like corn does. The majority of US corn goes to feed livestock. This how we get meat and dairy.

In 2008 the US produced 12.1 billion bushels of corn. (USDA figures)
5,250 million bu. - livestock feed
3,650 million bu. - ethanol production
1,850 million bu. - exports
943 million bu. - production of starch, corn oil, sweeteners
327 million bu. - human consumption - grits, flour, meal, beverage alcohol

If I remember correctly, there were food riots in 2009, due price increases in
food. Because corn went to ethanol production, forcing the price up, which
in turn increased meat prices. I don't see a workable bio-fuel, anytime soon.
Maybe someone will tell me what I'm missing, if I'm am missing something.

[wa8yxm]

Will it ever be viable.. Well that depends.. If they insist on using current (Corn based) technology, no, it will not, the only "Savings" Comes from the resulting higher cost of nearly everything forcing people to drive less.

However there are alternative ways to make bio-fuel, some of them are very low cost and very high output, But of course they are very ... Avoided.. by the industry for the very reasons you cite.

I mean.. Imagine the joy at Big Oil's board meeting "We can push this Gas-a-hol crap, Sell more oil to plant and tend and harvest and process.. And brag about how "Green" we are".

Or: His program will save oil and cut down on our sales.

No, that's never going to happen less we the people force it.

Look up alcohol from saw grass or butanol

[VanDiemen23]

When they crack the cellulosic ethanol problem so you can make it from any plant waste, then it will start to be viable.

The Navy has already produced butanol fuel.

[jackfish]

Switchgrass ethanol delivers 540 percent of the energy used to produce it, compared with about 125 percent returned by corn-based ethanol in the most optimistic scenarios.

[Murf2u]

Originally Posted by Don Rob

Ethanol has to trucked, to gas stations. It can't be put in pipelines and then be used as a motor fuel. It's unstable and changes if put in a pipeline.

That's not quite correct, gasoline and ethanol are produced differently, and in different places from different products. So in many cases the ethanol, produced in the midwest would have to be shipped to the vast majority of refineries in Texas and Louisiana then mixed with gasoline to be piped back north. Hardly cost effective. Besides which ethanol, like all other additives, is blended at the tank farm locally to achieve the varied requirements for each brand and grade of gasoline. In fact lots of gasoline has no ethanol whatsoever. Nothing is blended at the station itself, it arrives blended (and tested) from the distribution center.

Originally Posted by Don Rob

The majority of US corn goes to feed livestock. This how we get meat and dairy.

Yes, but there's no "bio-mass" industry lobby, and there's certainly not many folks who get elected or who's businesses or livelihoods depend on it, corn however.......... ;-)

[Gocoffeer]

Used veggie oil....is one bio-fuel that is becoming more popular today. It was more of a savings to those few person that represented the home fuel converters. They switched their diesel petrol cars and trucks to run on veggie oil and would gather the veggie oil and make usable vehicle fuel from it after collecting it. A few guys at work are doing this. BUT....as this fad has caught on....the suppliers of the used oil (restaurants) are finding that they can sell their oil instead of just giving it away. This changes the desire of those making fuel from veggie oil to more of a challenge as to where to gather their free supplies.

[chief02]

Crude oil is "renewable" it just takes a while. It's also organic.