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Old 01-21-2021, 12:28 PM   #1
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Lithium battery plug and play?

Finally bit the bullet and bought 4 105ah lithium to replace the 4 la in the coach. needed to replace them anyway as they were getting old.



now I read that they can burn up your alternator if it is used for charging.


so the Question is, are the batteries charged through the inverter charger protecting the alternator or through a one way isolater to protect the alternator?


2004 national rv tropical t370 with freedom 458 inverter charger.


I know there is no charging profile of the lithium batteries, and I will replace it eventually, when I put up the solar. They recommended using the agm setting untill I do.


TX


Tom
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Old 01-21-2021, 12:41 PM   #2
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It depends.
If the batteries aren't really depleted before you start driving, if you don't try to charge them using the alternator at low speed (idling), if the ambient outside temperatures are cooler, if the alternator is high output (200A+), or has been replaced by a newer smart alternator, you would probably not have to worry about hurting your alternator. Heat is the enemy, and most newer alternators will reduce their output if they get too hot. Some older ones might not.
The AGM setting is very close to the LiFePO4 settings, on most charge controllers/chargers. On my Zamp ZS-30A CC they're almost identical.
I should add, that lithium iron phosphate batteries do not have to be recharged fully to function. It does them no harm, as they have no "memory" like some earlier battery technology.
I dropped 2 X Relion RB100-LT batteries into my Navion over a year ago, and have put over 4000 miles on my setup with no ill effects and no additional hardware, other than adding a Charge Wizard Pendant to my (non lithium setting) PD9245 converter/charger, so I could boost them a bit when plugged in if I decided to take advantage of the shore power.
I would recommend keeping the rest of your upgrade project as simple as you feel comfortable with.
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Old 01-21-2021, 12:48 PM   #3
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To be safe, would go with a good dc-dc charger, not only will it protect your alternator, it will also provide the proper charge voltage to bring your lithium batteries to 100%. I use this one,
https://www.solar-electric.com/victr...87&utm_source=
Lithium batteries require a constant voltage of 14+ volts to charge properly, so when you upgrade your inverter, and buy a solar controller, look for ths ability.
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Old 01-21-2021, 01:27 PM   #4
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thanks for the replies,


If someone has a freedom458 maybe they could let me know how it worked out for them.



will just make sure they are not depleted by running the genset before hitting the road.
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Old 01-21-2021, 01:33 PM   #5
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Look at the BattleBorn site. They recommend BIM devices that cycle the output from the alternator on and off to prevent overheating.
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Old 01-21-2021, 01:54 PM   #6
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thanks for the replies,


If someone has a freedom458 maybe they could let me know how it worked out for them.



will just make sure they are not depleted by running the genset before hitting the road.
Don't think the Freedom 458 can be programed to lithium setting and it is modified sine wave, so not new technology, best to call battleborn and ask the best settings, and ask about the dc-dc chargers they sell also.
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Old 01-21-2021, 03:02 PM   #7
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thanks for the replies,


If someone has a freedom458 maybe they could let me know how it worked out for them.



will just make sure they are not depleted by running the genset before hitting the road.
If shore power is available, you could plug in and let your charger help charge them before heading out, too. Either way will help. Your alternator appears to be 130A, on the Freightliner XC chassis, so that may be worth looking into, regarding built in safety features for excess heat. Heat is the enemy.
Good luck with it. Lithium is definitely the way to go for coach power off grid.
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Old 01-21-2021, 03:21 PM   #8
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If shore power is available, you could plug in and let your charger help charge them before heading out, too. .
If shore power was avalable, his batteries wouldnt have been discharged.
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Old 01-21-2021, 03:30 PM   #9
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If shore power was avalable, his batteries wouldnt have been discharged.
Sorry, I must have missed the post where he said his batteries were discharged? Can you point me to it, perhaps?
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Old 01-21-2021, 03:32 PM   #10
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Sorry, I must have missed the post where he said his batteries were discharged? Can you point me to it, perhaps?
Sure,

now I read that they can burn up your alternator if it is used for charging.
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Old 01-21-2021, 03:37 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by F451degrees View Post
Finally bit the bullet and bought 4 105ah lithium to replace the 4 la in the coach. needed to replace them anyway as they were getting old.



now I read that they can burn up your alternator if it is used for charging.


so the Question is, are the batteries charged through the inverter charger protecting the alternator or through a one way isolater to protect the alternator?


2004 national rv tropical t370 with freedom 458 inverter charger.


I know there is no charging profile of the lithium batteries, and I will replace it eventually, when I put up the solar. They recommended using the agm setting untill I do.


TX


Tom
Tom,

Using the AGM setting will roughly give you the proper charging voltages BUT you do not want to go through a normal charge cycle of Bulk/Absorb/Float and have your lithium batteries held at a high voltage in the Absorb phase for hours on end as your would with lead acid batteries. This will slowly kill your lithium batteries.

In the manual I notice there is a way to change your battery bank size in the Freedom 458. This value usually controls the amount of time the battery bank stays in Absorb. I would set this to a small a value as possible to have your lithium batteries in Absorb for a short period of time. Another option is to switch the charger off after the battery bank finishes the Bulk phase.
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Old 01-21-2021, 03:40 PM   #12
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Sure,

now I read that they can burn up your alternator if it is used for charging.
Ahh, now I see your point. Not everyone plugs into shore power, even when it is available (SP?), particularly now that so many people have lithium/solar combos. I don't unless I want to run power tools, or manually boost my batteries. His original question was using the alternator to charge his 4 new batteries, and I took that as an "in general" question.
Thinking about it again, his batteries will not be charged, even if plugged into shore power, with his current hardware setup. His alternator may be able to finish the job while driving (mine does), unless it does cause the 130A alternator to fail. Until he gets his solar organized and adds a lithium capable charge controller, and/or swaps out the 458 for a lithium capable charger, he won't reach 100% full as his desired SoC, on shore power alone.
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Old 01-21-2021, 03:54 PM   #13
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OK so I'm guessing you bought 4 of the Lion Energy UT1300's?

I had a very similar set-up when I bought mine 18 months ago. I charged them through my Freedom 458 for about 9 months until we upgraded our inverters, the whole charging system actually!

1st of all don't let anyone tell you that you can charge them with your alternator if you don't let them get too low.....This is true but only for a while. I never let mine go below 90% when I pushed away from the curb and still fried an all but new 200A alternator.......either eliminate the alternator charging or install a DC-DC charger to manage the charging from the alternator.

In the Freedom 458 front set it to the AGM setting and it will take the Lions to their full charge until the BMS kicks in at 100% charged. In truth, it does work pretty well but not as good as my new Victron Multiplus 3000 chargers which have a true lithium profile, but the 458 will work just fine as I can attest.

Do you have any Solar? Solar is a real game-changer and works so much better with Lithium than Lead Acid/AGM batteries.
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Old 01-21-2021, 04:08 PM   #14
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1st of all don't let anyone tell you that you can charge them with your alternator if you don't let them get too low.....This is true but only for a while. I never let mine go below 90% when I pushed away from the curb and still fried an all but new 200A alternator.......either eliminate the alternator charging or install a DC-DC charger to manage the charging from the alternator.
Yes you can, and I do, with a newer 220A alternator. I've put thousands of miles on my setup, and no problems with the alternator at all. Sorry, if that doesn't work for you, but it's anecdotal real world experience. I have thought that it may be because I'm only charging 200Ah worth of batteries, that are never badly depleted. How many amp hours were you trying to charge with your 200A alternator? I'm curious if that's partly the reason I've had no problems.
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