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Old 03-03-2021, 10:37 AM   #1
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Used panel

Just wondering if anyone has used a preowned residential panel for their install. Came across a place here in Lexington that sells and installs solar. They have quite a few used 250watt plus panels for sale at $100 apiece. If i understant them correctly, they come with a 1 year warranty and the option to purchase a 5 year additional warranty.

Since I have jsut started my research on solar and not being sure this is something the wife will be comforatable with I figured that with one or possibley even 2 used panels, I can put a kit together for about 300 dollars or so if I do the install myself. The only problem I can see is trying to find a location for the charge controller that is close to the batteries and would a) get airflow and b) be protected from damage. The closest would be the basement of the toy hauler but it does not have a door on both sides since the warer heater is on the driver side. and if I used the under bed area, I would lose most of the little bit of storage that I have.

My ideal location is under the fridge next to the panel and the CO detector, but that may be too far away from the batteries. I gonna guess it would be about 15/20 feet of run but I have not measured it yet.

Any and all help would be greatly appreciated.
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Old 03-03-2021, 07:48 PM   #2
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I wouldn't hesitate to buy the used panels. I'd look at the fabrication date. Most residential panels are guaranteed for 25 years. I have a single 270 watt 24V residential panel I bought new for $160. I connected that to an 30A EPEVER MPPT charge controller that I paid about $170 for. I have about 200AH of flooded lead acid batteries. I mounted the MPPT in my pass through storage area to the top. I actually mounted it to a piece of wood and hinged it so I can fold it down to get easy access (you need a hinge loop for the wires). It I have checked it several times and never found to be hot. If it is really hot outside, I prop open the access door on the camp side of the trailer. I have been using this setup for about 3 years with no issues. We dry camp about about 5 times a year for 4 to 7 days at a time.
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Old 03-04-2021, 03:42 PM   #3
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I would test each of the panels on the ground before mounting them on the RV. It's a pain to have them up on the roof with the Z brackets secured and then find you have a problem.
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Old 03-04-2021, 03:48 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by astrocamper View Post
I would test each of the panels on the ground before mounting them on the RV. It's a pain to have them up on the roof with the Z brackets secured and then find you have a problem.

Good point!


I have 2 used 230W panels. Great for ground mount due to their very rectangle shape. Cost $90 each. Could have bought used standard shape 250w for $60 each. Santan Solar AZ.
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Old 03-07-2021, 03:10 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Pappi View Post
Just wondering if anyone has used a preowned residential panel for their install. Came across a place here in Lexington that sells and installs solar. They have quite a few used 250watt plus panels for sale at $100 apiece. If i understant them correctly, they come with a 1 year warranty and the option to purchase a 5 year additional warranty.

I saw that Santan Solar in Arizona was selling used (10yr old) 250w residential panels for $50 each. That only works IF you happen to be nearby so you can pick them up (otherwise shipping makes them way too expensive). I was driving through so I thought I would stop by and purchase a very simple 250w system for my RV. Well, when I went as luck would have it the panels were on sale for just $35 each. In my mind, that's pretty close to free...lol. So I immediately bumped up my idea such that I would put a 500w system on my RV (since it would really only cost me about $60 more (panel plus some extra parts). In total, the 500w system with brackets, fuses, wiring, and a 30 amp MPPT controller was ~$225. That's less than the 200w Windy Nation package I bought for my other RV off of amazon (~$280).


Yes, you need to test each panel for voltage and amps prior to purchasing AND then again prior to installing (...once those suckers are mounted, you don't want to have to take them off!).


I just finished up my 500w solar install. Working beautifully.


IMPORTANT: I have found that by looking on your local craigslist you will probably see all sorts of used solar panels up for sale. You should be able to find 250w panels in good shape for anywhere from $35-70/panel. $100/panel actually sounds a bit expensive to me. I just picked up four 100w 12v panels for $25/panel and I'll add two of them to my Windy Nation 200w kit to make it 400w for another RV that I own. With one of the other 100w panels I created a simple portable setup so that I could put it on my boat to keep the dual batteries topped off while in storage (it has a charge controller).


Panels, z-brackets, wires, fuses, controller, dicor...that's pretty much all you need. Oh, and about 5 trips back and forth to Home Depot for misc screws, bolts, etc.



Good luck!
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Old 03-07-2021, 11:33 AM   #6
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As long as you use the proper size wiring to reduce the voltage drop the 15 to 20' shouldn't be a problem.
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Old 03-07-2021, 05:12 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Pappi View Post

My ideal location is under the fridge next to the panel and the CO detector, but that may be too far away from the batteries. I gonna guess it would be about 15/20 feet of run but I have not measured it yet.

Any and all help would be greatly appreciated.

Here is a handy voltage drop calculator:
https://www.calculator.net/voltage-drop-calculator.html


Size your wires for 1-2% voltage drop and you should be fine. Lower is obviously better if possible.



-Chris
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Old 03-08-2021, 07:22 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by SJ-Chris View Post
Here is a handy voltage drop calculator:
https://www.calculator.net/voltage-drop-calculator.html


Size your wires for 1-2% voltage drop and you should be fine. Lower is obviously better if possible.



-Chris
I have seem that calculator before. The one thing I dont understand is what number should be place in the "amps" box. Should it be the size of the charge controller or the optimum operating current of the panel.

I am the first to admit that my knowledge of electricity is very, very limited.

Thanks
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Old 03-08-2021, 09:53 AM   #9
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Solar Controller amps to battery.


Solar Panel amps to Controller.


MPPT Solar controller works like a DC transformer.

The important unit is Watts. W = V * I
Watts in at higher voltage becomes Watts out at higher current. ,lower voltage. There is no free lunch, about 3-5% watts lost.
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Old 03-08-2021, 12:35 PM   #10
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I have seem that calculator before. The one thing I dont understand is what number should be place in the "amps" box. Should it be the size of the charge controller or the optimum operating current of the panel.

I am the first to admit that my knowledge of electricity is very, very limited.

Thanks

I am by far an expert, so take this for what it's worth...


When sizing your wires for your solar system, there are two things to think about....


First: Safety. Namely, can this wire safely carry the maximum expected current (load) without getting hot or more importantly burning up. Here is a wire chart table that is pretty useful: https://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm
You will notice there is a column that says "Maximum amps for chassis wiring". I think you can use this number when thinking about "safety".



However, that brings us to the Second thing to consider: Voltage drop
The more resistance in the wire, the harder it is for the current to get through. Smaller wires have more resistance...bigger wires have less resistance. In the wire chart you will see a column for "Maximum amps for Power Transmission". This column takes into account the fact that you don't want to lose much voltage when power is being supplied.


For example, if you look at 10AWG wire you will see that it can safely handle 55amps, but if using it for power transmission you should only use if your max will be 15amps (otherwise you will start running into higher amounts of voltage drop).


Of course, the length of your wire is an important consideration in the planning of your solar install and wire sizing also. That's where this website comes in handy: https://www.calculator.net/voltage-drop-calculator.html


I just got through installing a 500w system on my RV (two 250w residential panels with ~37v output which requires an MPPT controller). These would have a maximum output of 8.2amps per panel (16.4amps total). I used 10AWG wiring on a long run (40') from my roof to my charge controller. Here is what that looks like using the website calculator:
https://www.calculator.net/voltage-d...s=16&x=51&y=23
At maximum output, there will be about a 3.5% loss in voltage drop. (but keep in mind, when NOT at maximum output, which is much of the time, the loss will be less). 3.5% loss on a 500w system translates to effectively 17.5w loss (who cares?). If I was crazy concerned about squeezing every last drop out of my solar system, OR (important) if I ever thought I would want more solar in the future, I would have used a thicker wire. But in my case, I really only wanted/needed 250w of solar but when I was buying my system (with used panels) from Santan Solar and they were selling the 250w panels for only $35 each I decided I would put up 500w. $35/panel!?!....I couldn't resist....lol



There are two main wires for you to think about in your solar install: The wire from your panels to your charge controller, and the wire from your charge controller to your batteries.


Panels to charge controller wire: This will determine how much waste or efficiency you are getting out of your panels. My personal feeling is that it is not really that important at the end of the day whether you are losing 2% as compared to 4% (or even more). On a 500w system that means it is effectively 490w vs 480w....who cares right? I would say though that if you think in the future you might add more solar, you'll be happy if you used thicker wire during your initial install so you don't have to change it or run a parallel wire later.



Charge controller to Batteries wire: This wire is the more important one. In order to charge your batteries optimally (and fully) you want them to be getting the right voltage. You want a low voltage drop % on this wire. That can be accomplished by having the charge controller closer to the batteries (if possible) and/or using thicker wires. Your charge controller will likely have a maximum thickness wire it can support and you should use whatever that maximum is. In my case, I put my solar charge controller under the dinette bench seat and put my 2000w inverter there also. The 2000w inverter has two parallel sets of 2AWG wires going to my batteries. The batteries are about 8 - 15 feet away. There is a ~2' wire that is 6AWG (maximum my controller can fit) from my charge controller to the battery posts on my inverter. My voltage drop is tiny because of the dual set of inverter wires. If your charge controller is less than 10' away from your batteries, then if you are using 6-8AWG wiring you should be fine. When solar is topping off your batteries (the last 10-15% of charging) when you want 14.4 volts (for most lead acid batteries) your batteries will likely only be accepting 1-5 amps (even if your solar is capable of delivering much more). If you plug that into the voltage drop website you will see your voltage drop goes way down.



Final note: If you are just getting started, it can be a little addictive (lol). My suggestion is this: Whatever you were thinking of putting up (however many watts), especially if you are buying less expensive used panels (which is the theme of this thread), just add an extra panel or two and then don't worry if your system is 100% efficient. As in my case, I only was planning on putting up 250 watts so when I put 500 watts up there it really is an overkill so a few % of waste based on a non-optimal design and/or my lack of experience really doesn't matter.


Then go camping somewhere without hookups and enjoy watching your batteries get charged during the day by the sun! If your charge controller isn't mounted where you can see it easily, I would suggest you install a battery monitor. I put in the Aili monitor and I love it (...and it was only ~$45).



Happy camping!
Chris
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Old 03-08-2021, 06:50 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SJ-Chris View Post
I am by far an expert, so take this for what it's worth...


When sizing your wires for your solar system, there are two things to think about....


First: Safety. Namely, can this wire safely carry the maximum expected current (load) without getting hot or more importantly burning up. Here is a wire chart table that is pretty useful: https://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm
You will notice there is a column that says "Maximum amps for chassis wiring". I think you can use this number when thinking about "safety".



However, that brings us to the Second thing to consider: Voltage drop
The more resistance in the wire, the harder it is for the current to get through. Smaller wires have more resistance...bigger wires have less resistance. In the wire chart you will see a column for "Maximum amps for Power Transmission". This column takes into account the fact that you don't want to lose much voltage when power is being supplied.


For example, if you look at 10AWG wire you will see that it can safely handle 55amps, but if using it for power transmission you should only use if your max will be 15amps (otherwise you will start running into higher amounts of voltage drop).


Of course, the length of your wire is an important consideration in the planning of your solar install and wire sizing also. That's where this website comes in handy: https://www.calculator.net/voltage-drop-calculator.html


I just got through installing a 500w system on my RV (two 250w residential panels with ~37v output which requires an MPPT controller). These would have a maximum output of 8.2amps per panel (16.4amps total). I used 10AWG wiring on a long run (40') from my roof to my charge controller. Here is what that looks like using the website calculator:
https://www.calculator.net/voltage-d...s=16&x=51&y=23
At maximum output, there will be about a 3.5% loss in voltage drop. (but keep in mind, when NOT at maximum output, which is much of the time, the loss will be less). 3.5% loss on a 500w system translates to effectively 17.5w loss (who cares?). If I was crazy concerned about squeezing every last drop out of my solar system, OR (important) if I ever thought I would want more solar in the future, I would have used a thicker wire. But in my case, I really only wanted/needed 250w of solar but when I was buying my system (with used panels) from Santan Solar and they were selling the 250w panels for only $35 each I decided I would put up 500w. $35/panel!?!....I couldn't resist....lol



There are two main wires for you to think about in your solar install: The wire from your panels to your charge controller, and the wire from your charge controller to your batteries.


Panels to charge controller wire: This will determine how much waste or efficiency you are getting out of your panels. My personal feeling is that it is not really that important at the end of the day whether you are losing 2% as compared to 4% (or even more). On a 500w system that means it is effectively 490w vs 480w....who cares right? I would say though that if you think in the future you might add more solar, you'll be happy if you used thicker wire during your initial install so you don't have to change it or run a parallel wire later.



Charge controller to Batteries wire: This wire is the more important one. In order to charge your batteries optimally (and fully) you want them to be getting the right voltage. You want a low voltage drop % on this wire. That can be accomplished by having the charge controller closer to the batteries (if possible) and/or using thicker wires. Your charge controller will likely have a maximum thickness wire it can support and you should use whatever that maximum is. In my case, I put my solar charge controller under the dinette bench seat and put my 2000w inverter there also. The 2000w inverter has two parallel sets of 2AWG wires going to my batteries. The batteries are about 8 - 15 feet away. There is a ~2' wire that is 6AWG (maximum my controller can fit) from my charge controller to the battery posts on my inverter. My voltage drop is tiny because of the dual set of inverter wires. If your charge controller is less than 10' away from your batteries, then if you are using 6-8AWG wiring you should be fine. When solar is topping off your batteries (the last 10-15% of charging) when you want 14.4 volts (for most lead acid batteries) your batteries will likely only be accepting 1-5 amps (even if your solar is capable of delivering much more). If you plug that into the voltage drop website you will see your voltage drop goes way down.



Final note: If you are just getting started, it can be a little addictive (lol). My suggestion is this: Whatever you were thinking of putting up (however many watts), especially if you are buying less expensive used panels (which is the theme of this thread), just add an extra panel or two and then don't worry if your system is 100% efficient. As in my case, I only was planning on putting up 250 watts so when I put 500 watts up there it really is an overkill so a few % of waste based on a non-optimal design and/or my lack of experience really doesn't matter.


Then go camping somewhere without hookups and enjoy watching your batteries get charged during the day by the sun! If your charge controller isn't mounted where you can see it easily, I would suggest you install a battery monitor. I put in the Aili monitor and I love it (...and it was only ~$45).



Happy camping!
Chris
Chris, that is avery good description but unless I am missing something it really does not answer my question regarding amps. Again, do i use Optimum Operating Current (Imp) and double it if using two panels that are alike or do I have to have the system installed and then make a decision regarding the amps?

I apologize for the silly questions but as I said above, my electrical knowledge is non existant. But I am willing and trying to learn.
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Old 03-08-2021, 07:57 PM   #12
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Chris, that is avery good description but unless I am missing something it really does not answer my question regarding amps. Again, do i use Optimum Operating Current (Imp) and double it if using two panels that are alike or do I have to have the system installed and then make a decision regarding the amps?

I apologize for the silly questions but as I said above, my electrical knowledge is non existant. But I am willing and trying to learn.

There is usually a sticker on the back of solar panels that give all the technical info. You will probably see one line that says "Max Power Current" or something like that. On a 250w residential panel it is probably ~8.2 amps. (Note: Most of the time, you probably will not see 8.2 amps coming out of such a panel...probably more likely between 3-8 amps depending on the sun, time of year, etc)



If you are using one 250w panel on your roof for your solar system, then your max current would be around that number.


If you are installing two 250w panels IN PARALLEL on your roof, then your current would get doubled....~16.4 amps max.



If you are installing three 250w panels IN PARALLEL on your roof, then your max current would be triple whatever the Max Power Current rating per panel is.


Use that knowledge to size your wires from the roof to your charge controller.


There is are two ways you can wire your rooftop solar panels...in parallel or in series. If you connect two in parallel, your voltage will be the same as the voltage rating for one panel but your current will be doubled. If you connect two of them in series, your voltage will be doubled and your current will be whatever the single panel rating is. You can google parallel vs series solar panels and decide which way you want to connect them....but I believe most agree that parallel is the way to go (mostly having to do with partial shading scenarios). I put my panels in parallel.



I'm assuming your residential panels are rated at ~37-38 volts. For these panels, you will need a MPPT solar charge controller (not a PWM solar charge controller). The MPPT solar charge controller will convert your higher voltage into whatever the controller thinks your batteries needs (ie. 13.6v or 14.4 volts depending on the charging stage).


Here's an example... Let's say you have two 250w residential panels on your rooftop connected in parallel. Let's say on a sunny day these are producing 36v and 14 amps to your charge controller. Your charge controller will convert that roughly into (for example) 13.6v and 37 amps output to your batteries (...assuming your batteries can accept that sort of current based on their state of charge). 36 volts / 13.6 volts - 2.65 x 14 amps = 37 amps. This is all assuming a perfect world/wires/etc. In reality it will likely produce something a little less than this.


If you are looking for a specific question about amps and wiring, please reply with all the rating info on the back of your solar panel, tell us how many panels you are installing (or might install in the future), let us know if you are installing them in parallel (likely) or in series. Then we will be able to better answer your specific question.


Hope that helps.


-Chris
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Old 03-14-2021, 04:45 PM   #13
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There is usually a sticker on the back of solar panels that give all the technical info. You will probably see one line that says "Max Power Current" or something like that. On a 250w residential panel it is probably ~8.2 amps. (Note: Most of the time, you probably will not see 8.2 amps coming out of such a panel...probably more likely between 3-8 amps depending on the sun, time of year, etc)



If you are using one 250w panel on your roof for your solar system, then your max current would be around that number.


If you are installing two 250w panels IN PARALLEL on your roof, then your current would get doubled....~16.4 amps max.



If you are installing three 250w panels IN PARALLEL on your roof, then your max current would be triple whatever the Max Power Current rating per panel is.


Use that knowledge to size your wires from the roof to your charge controller.


There is are two ways you can wire your rooftop solar panels...in parallel or in series. If you connect two in parallel, your voltage will be the same as the voltage rating for one panel but your current will be doubled. If you connect two of them in series, your voltage will be doubled and your current will be whatever the single panel rating is. You can google parallel vs series solar panels and decide which way you want to connect them....but I believe most agree that parallel is the way to go (mostly having to do with partial shading scenarios). I put my panels in parallel.



I'm assuming your residential panels are rated at ~37-38 volts. For these panels, you will need a MPPT solar charge controller (not a PWM solar charge controller). The MPPT solar charge controller will convert your higher voltage into whatever the controller thinks your batteries needs (ie. 13.6v or 14.4 volts depending on the charging stage).


Here's an example... Let's say you have two 250w residential panels on your rooftop connected in parallel. Let's say on a sunny day these are producing 36v and 14 amps to your charge controller. Your charge controller will convert that roughly into (for example) 13.6v and 37 amps output to your batteries (...assuming your batteries can accept that sort of current based on their state of charge). 36 volts / 13.6 volts - 2.65 x 14 amps = 37 amps. This is all assuming a perfect world/wires/etc. In reality it will likely produce something a little less than this.


If you are looking for a specific question about amps and wiring, please reply with all the rating info on the back of your solar panel, tell us how many panels you are installing (or might install in the future), let us know if you are installing them in parallel (likely) or in series. Then we will be able to better answer your specific question.


Hope that helps.


-Chris

....and for the wire from your charge controller to your batteries, use the maximum amps your charge controller can deliver as the amps in the Voltage Drop Calculator (along with the wire distance, and 14.4v) and you should have a good idea as to what the voltage drop will be going to your batteries. Likely, you should go with the largest sized wire that will fit into your charge controller.


-Chris
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Old 03-21-2021, 10:39 AM   #14
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