AMP Electric Vehicles Inc. to Buy Workhorse from Navistar RV

[Oldme]

Maybe this will open the doors to the best EV batteries technology for the consumer, that could be used for house batteries, even if not for vehicle power.

Search forNIMH batteries and who killed the electric car.

If that technology could get to the public, we could see far more powerful batteries for storage that are lighter and smaller.

[vincee]

IMHO the problems with EV and battery power isn't the battery storage of power, but more so time required to re-charge and second weight. What happened to all the talk about hydrogen powered vehicles as the way of the future. Again, IMHO EV's. are not "new" technology, but more like updated same old same old "future" vehicle stuff being passed around for the last 50 years.

[Oldme]

Vincee,
I agree.

My point is there is better battery tech that is being kept off the market.
That is why I made the reference to the two areas to Google.

If the battery that is being kept off the market for the EV is that good, reportedly smaller, more powerful and been in use for 12 years, then a smaller version would be great for the RV electric storage.

There are many discussions about what battery to use, 12v, 6v golfcart, lead, gel, etc. The battery tech that I referred to in the two google articles are lighter, quicker to recharge, hold a charge longer, have longer life and are more powerful.

However the patient holder has other interests that conflict with it being fully developed and marketed.

Maybe this new venture by AMP will help open the door to this getting to market.
If so we may have better batteries for everyday use, not just EV.

[wyorancher]

All very interesting since I have a new Monaco gasser. Navistar sure seems to be treating their customers better than other RV manufacturers that I have encountered in the past. The new Monaco and Holiday Rambler built by Navistar is basically the same unit. Do you think they decided just to dump that workhorse chassis and stick with the F53 chassis?

[vincee]

Oldme, right on! When you hear of better products or technologies being available but not brought to market I believe it's because large corps. that have a huge financial stake in maintaining status quo exert large influences, political and otherwise in keeping these discoveries buried. The Tucker car comes to mind, or how about the rumor for decades since WWII that they could turn water into gasoline! Mercedes has a commercial that they invented the hybrid engine in 1913!

[RustyJC]

Hey, while you're listing conspiracy theories, you forgot the famous 100 mpg Fish carburetor!! And yes, you can turn water into fuel (hydrogen) - the only problem is that it takes more energy to dissociate the hydrogen and oxygen atoms than one obtains from recombining them in a combustion process. Those darned laws of physics and chemistry getcha every time!!

Rusty

[Oldme]

Yea,
I remember the reading about the Fish Carb in the 1950's-60's.
I also had an uncle that wrote military vehicle maintenance manuals in WWII and was later what was then designated as a Ford Master Mechanic, talk about them.

If I remember correctly, 1 bbl carb for a 6 cyl motor (pretty standard for a 6 cyl) but was optimized to be a lean burn withing a certain RPM range. I bet the rest was also optimized for max MPG ( timing, exhaust, rear gear, vehicle weight, etc.).

One cool thing about the battery in the story I referred to is they were actually built. There is a Bronco (in the story with pictures) that was converted to EV. It has used the same batteries for 12 years and the builder compared them to other available batteries for EV. The patient was acquired when an oil company bought the parent company to the company than owned the patient. Then the batteries were never made again. I recently read that a Japanese Company is trying to buy the patient and produce them there.

I did not place a link to the story as I do not know this form's link policy.
It can be easily found searching the words I gave.

Water into gas; maybe they could talk to the people that have contaminated wells from flaking. They seem to have that now.

[wingnut60]

Links are no problem, done all the time. Post it, please. And also the link to the wells (I assume you are talking about water wells) that have been contaminated by fracking.
Thanks,
Joe

[RustyJC]

Originally Posted by Oldme

Water into gas; maybe they could talk to the people that have contaminated wells from flaking. They seem to have that now.

That's a nice green fable. Care to cite an OBJECTIVE source??

Fracking takes place thousands of feet below ground level (typically 6000 ft or more); water wells are typically a few hundred feet deep. The oil/gas well bore is cased with steel pipe which is sealed to the rock with cement around the casing. How exactly does the oil/gas get from the play zone many thousands of feet deep into the water table?

You know, those of us in the oil business have to live on this Earth, too. If fracking were proven to pollute ground water, then first of all the downhole engineers wouldn't do it and secondly the governmental regulators (especially today!!) would never permit it.

Fracking (hydraulic fracturing) is not a new procedure. It's been used for many decades in conventional oil fields; you hear more about it today because it's what makes production from the tight rock formations in the new shale plays possible.

Rusty

[Oldme]

This will get you started on the batteries until I find another link:

Patent encumbrance of large automotive NiMH batteries - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://www.ev1.org/chevron.htm

Revenge of the NiMH Batteries? | Plug In America

EVWORLD.COM

Hybrid Car Batteries, Comparing NiMH and Lithium Ion Performance, Toxicity, and Recycling

GM, Chevron and CARB killed the NiMH EV once, will do so again

Michel Laverdure's 1999 Ford Ranger EV


Ref Fracking:

Why Ban Fracking? | Food & Water Watch

Fracking | StateImpact Pennsylvania

Is fracking behind contamination in Wyoming groundwater? : Nature News & Comment

EPA halted 'fracking' case after gas company protested

'Fracking' brings prosperity, problems to Pennsylvania - Baltimore Sun

| Water Contamination From Fracking (Hydraulic Fracturing)

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/04/us...pagewanted=all

Some Water Wells in Wyoming Fracking Community Contaminated, EPA Says | Water Contamination From Fracking (Hydraulic Fracturing)

Fracking Pollution: Wells Found Contaminated Near Bradford County, Pennsylvania Natural Gas Blowout

A Colossal Fracking Mess | Vanity Fair

[RustyJC]

I'm still waiting for some objective sources - not the New York Times and Vanity Fair.

Tell ya what, if you're all that green and hate the oil industry that much, let's just shut down all oil and gas production, all the refineries, all the service stations, all the gas processing plants, compressor stations and pipelines and see how you like America WITHOUT the oil industry. I'm sure you'll be first in line to park your RV and other diesel/gasoline fueled vehicles, refuse to refill the RV's propane tanks, shut off the heating oil, natural gas or propane in the S&B and live by candlelight and wood fires (but then there's that darned pollution from the wood smoke). No kerosene lamps allowed - that's made from oil, you know. No oil or gas based plastics or pharmaceuticals, either. Oh, and the trucks and trains won't be running, nor will the airplanes and ships.

Before you sign up for this and drag out your electric golf cart or tout your all-electric home, you might check where the electricity to recharge the batteries or turn on the lights comes from. Most of it comes from coal or natural gas fired or nuclear power plants. Would you like to shut those down as well?

Rusty

[Oldme]

ob·jec·tive (b-jktv)adj.1. Of or having to do with a material object.
2. Having actual existence or reality.
3. a. Uninfluenced by emotions or personal prejudices

I can see where you would be sensitive to oil company criticism since you work for them. That would also affect you objectivity.

I see too many reports from around the world that show a building of evidence against fracking. In the links above there are internal links. If you took time to read each on would see that there is not a world-wide coincidence of "possible fracking problems". There are problems.

A quick search will find all kinds of reported problems. Are these news reports objective? That is in the eye of the beholder.

'Fracking' brings prosperity, problems to Pennsylvania - Baltimore Sun

Fracking Pollution: Wells Found Contaminated Near Bradford County, Pennsylvania Natural Gas Blowout

Now the lawyers are jumping on the flaming tap-water issues:
| Water Contamination From Fracking (Hydraulic Fracturing)

I was raised in Va. near big tobacco companies and chemical plants. Both have denied their products would cause harm. It took years to prove the cancer link to tobacco. The news reports first came the then the truth as evidence mounted. Tobacco companies could no longer defend their claims.

The company that made Keypone (sp) ion the 1970's knew it's dangers. My uncle worked for the plant. That plant spun off that production to a smaller plant to shield itself from liability. The pollution almost killed the fishing, crabbing, oyster industry in the James River and the Bay. This information first came out in the news media. Later, in court the truth came out.

All industry does the something.
My Dad worked for another chemical plant. They would bring in tank-car loads of Freon to refill their refrigeration. When they were done the remainder of the Freon was released into the atmosphere. SOP.

Later the same company came out saying the Freon was BAD for the atmosphere and lobbied to have it eliminated and their new product used instead. They got what they wanted.

When we lived in on the West Coast of Fl. there are a big investigation about Rayethion's old 1950's site. The local papers had pictures of 2 headed frogs from one of their old ponds and some areas are to this day, fenced off. People who were living in apartments that were build over the old site, where have an unsually high rate of cancer. The problem was toxic waste from production of vaccum tuibe and military items that are still classified. All pollution claims had been denied for over 50 years. The evidence in the news mounted and the truth came out.

I have been a user of gas/oil products since I bought my first car at age 15, then heating oil and LP. I am all for expanding American Oilfields, increasing oil production and refinement plus keeping it in the American Markets. Doing so would eliminate or reliance on foreign oil, create jobs and bring down the cost of living.

It just has to be done safely.

The building evidence is indicating there are problems.
We will see more as the lawyers become involved and overcome the lobbyists that had the EPA stop their investigation. The truth will appear.

To me, Being Objective is looking at the problems with an open mind.
Ask why has there been so many of the same problems, in so many different areas world, when the problems did not exist before fracking. The news reports show problems that everyday citizens are having. Naturally big business will push back, as they always have.

[Oldme]

Interesting video:

Tap Water on Fire !! - YouTube

Study links flammable tap water to fracking | MNN - Mother Nature Network

Oh look my tap water is on fire - News - Canton Daily Ledger - Canton, IL

Tap Water Catches On Fire In Debby And Jason Kline's Ohio Home Due To Methane Levels

Flaming Tap Water on Gasland on HBO Tonight | The Moderate Voice

Tap Water on Fire

[RustyJC]

From a Popular Mechanics article debunking the "flaming tapwater" Gasland video:

Claim No. 7

"DO NOT DRINK THIS WATER"

HANDWRITTEN SIGN IN THE DOCUMENTARY GASLAND, 2010

It's an iconic image, captured in the 2010 Academy Award—nominated documentary GasLand. A Colorado man holds a flame to his kitchen faucet and turns on the water. The pipes rattle and hiss, and suddenly a ball of fire erupts. It appears a damning indictment of the gas drilling nearby. But Colorado officials determined the gas wells weren't to blame; instead, the homeowner's own water well had been drilled into a naturally occurring pocket of methane.

Originally Posted by Oldme

We will see more as the lawyers become involved and overcome the lobbyists that had the EPA stop their investigation. The truth will appear

Civil litigation attorneys do NOT search for truth. They search for deep pockets.

I'm sure you can find thousands of links full of hand-wringing over fracking. After all, it's the environmentalist groups' current target. That doesn't change the mechanics involved, however. Fracturing a rock formation 6000 feet underground doesn't cause migration of natural gas into a drinking water well that's several hundred feet deep.

In a hydraulic fracturing job, "fracturing fluids" or "pumping fluids" consisting primarily of water and sand are injected under high pressure into the producing formation, creating fissures that allow resources to move freely from rock pores where it is trapped.

Typically, steel pipe known as surface casing is cemented into place at the uppermost portion of a well for the explicit purpose of protecting the groundwater. The depth of the surface casing is generally determined based on groundwater protection, among other factors. As the well is drilled deeper, additional casing is installed to isolate the formation(s) from which oil or natural gas is to be produced, which further protects groundwater from the producing formations in the well.

Casing and cementing are critical parts of the well construction that not only protect any water zones, but are also important to successful oil or natural gas production from hydrocarbon bearing zones. Industry well design practices protect sources of drinking water from the other geologic zone of an oil and natural gas well with multiple layers of impervious rock.

While 99.5 percent of the fluids used consist of water and sand, some chemicals are added to improve the flow. The composition of the chemical mixes varies from well to well.

Rusty