California plans to ban small IC engines by Jan 2024

[move on]

Originally Posted by tetranz

That's fine if your actions don't affect anyone else but in many situations, it's not that simple.

Emissions drift across property lines. Same with noise, bright lights and other things.

Imagine if I live next door to you in a close suburban situation. Is it okay for me to use my noisy leaf blower at 3 am just outside your bedroom window?

Would you object to that or, as an old fashioned nut, would you be happy that your neighbor is exercising his freedom of personal choice while you exercise your freedom of personal choice attempting to sleep at that time?

I like to trim my weeds at that time, you like to sleep. Would you try to force your likes or dislikes onto me?

How about tolerance? You can't have freedom without tolerance.

[Homeby5]

Originally Posted by tetranz

Imagine if I live next door to you in a close suburban situation. Is it okay for me to use my noisy leaf blower at 3 am just outside your bedroom window?

Would you object to that or, as an old fashioned nut, would you be happy that your neighbor is exercising his freedom of personal choice while you exercise your freedom of personal choice attempting to sleep at that time?

I like to trim my weeds at that time, you like to sleep. Would you try to force your likes or dislikes onto me?

Typical response from social media where people desperately try to validate an opinion that is illogical by using extreme arguments in the discussion and thinking they have a drop the mic moment.
To any reasonable person, your example makes no sense to the current discussion. There are already local noise ordinances to deal with your specific example regarding your neighbors being loud at certain times of the day or night while using an ICE. Using your logic, do we ban everything that can be used to break noise ordinances already established? Do we ban guitars, drums, car radios, outboard motors, etc.. Of course not, but any of these items...and literally hundreds of other legal noise makers can be used to disturb the normal resting periods of our society. That's why mist localities write broad laws restricting noise...no matter the origin.
So, I am open to a change of mind regarding freedom, but for this polite discussion, can you give another reason why small ICE's should warrant new laws that removes personal choices of people that prefer ICE's?

[Ldubs]

Originally Posted by Homeby5

Typical response from social media where people desperately try to validate an opinion that is illogical by using extreme arguments in the discussion and thinking they have a drop the mic moment.
To any reasonable person, your example makes no sense to the current discussion. There are already local noise ordinances to deal with your specific example regarding your neighbors being loud at certain times of the day or night while using an ICE. Using your logic, do we ban everything that can be used to break noise ordinances already established? Do we ban guitars, drums, car radios, outboard motors, etc.. Of course not, but any of these items...and literally hundreds of other legal noise makers can be used to disturb the normal resting periods of our society. That's why mist localities write broad laws restricting noise...no matter the origin.
So, I am open to a change of mind regarding freedom, but for this polite discussion, can you give another reason why small ICE's should warrant new laws that removes personal choices of people that prefer ICE's?

I agree. Using a leaf blower in the middle of the night is not a comparison to argue.

I think two-stroke equipment is pretty dirty. Four-stroke not so much. Anyway, whether I agree or not, I think the simple answer to your last sentence is pollution.

We all have complained over the years about changes being forced on us in the name of cleaning up the environment. As much as I hate to admit it, I recall how nasty it was to stand behind the exhaust of a 60's era car vs one today. We have made good progress. What I don't like is the outright ban as opposed to mandating cleaner operating equipment -- soft of like CARB does for outboard motors. We need a balanced approach to be successful.

[radar]

Originally Posted by Ldubs

I agree. Using a leaf blower in the middle of the night is not a comparison to argue.

I think two-stroke equipment is pretty dirty. Four-stroke not so much. Anyway, whether I agree or not, I think the simple answer to your last sentence is pollution.

We all have complained over the years about changes being forced on us in the name of cleaning up the environment. As much as I hate to admit it, I recall how nasty it was to stand behind the exhaust of a 60's era car vs one today. We have made good progress. What I don't like is the outright ban as opposed to mandating cleaner operating equipment -- soft of like CARB does for outboard motors. We need a balanced approach to be successful.

Totally agree. We used to go to classic car show drive bys in our local park. Not anymore. Super stinky nauseating experience.

This is not about green house gasses. It’s about localized air quality. One person may not care. But the mother of the asthmatic kid who has an attack that may end his life because they couldn’t get the window closed fast enough when the leaf blowers guy went by does care. But you know, screw em. It’s just a kid. There are lots of them. And it is his fault for being weak. /S. Society is judged on how it cares for its most vulnerable.

This law will reduce, not eliminate the amount of these two cycle engines out there. If people really want one they’ll go and find them. But most people with a home yard to look after will just go to Home Depot and buy what’s on the shelf. And if all that is on the shelf is electric then that is what he or she will buy.

We had 2 cycle tools 25 years ago when we had commercial properties. They were a huge PITA. When battery products became mainstream later on we gave the two cycle stuff away. The electric stuff just runs and runs and we are going on 10 years with the batteries. They have shorter run time but meh. We just use them in less demanding tools and get a new battery from time to time. Beats the heck out of dealing with carbs and carb cleaner and spark plug cleaning and mixed gas etc etc.

All JMHO.

[Ldubs]

Originally Posted by radar

Totally agree. We used to go to classic car show drive bys in our local park. Not anymore. Super stinky nauseating experience.

This is not about green house gasses. It’s about localized air quality. One person may not care. But the mother of the asthmatic kid who has an attack that may end his life because they couldn’t get the window closed fast enough when the leaf blowers guy went by does care. But you know, screw em. It’s just a kid. There are lots of them. And it is his fault for being weak. /S. Society is judged on how it cares for its most vulnerable.

This law will reduce, not eliminate the amount of these two cycle engines out there. If people really want one they’ll go and find them. But most people with a home yard to look after will just go to Home Depot and buy what’s on the shelf. And if all that is on the shelf is electric then that is what he or she will buy.

We had 2 cycle tools 25 years ago when we had commercial properties. They were a huge PITA. When battery products became mainstream later on we gave the two cycle stuff away. The electric stuff just runs and runs and we are going on 10 years with the batteries. They have shorter run time but meh. We just use them in less demanding tools and get a new battery from time to time. Beats the heck out of dealing with carbs and carb cleaner and spark plug cleaning and mixed gas etc etc.

All JMHO.

Air quality is an important issue for people with medical issues. I do not agree at all with your characterizations in the last part of your second paragraph. Just sayin.

[Homeby5]

Originally Posted by radar

Totally agree. We used to go to classic car show drive bys in our local park. Not anymore. Super stinky nauseating experience.

This is not about green house gasses. It’s about localized air quality. One person may not care. But the mother of the asthmatic kid who has an attack that may end his life because they couldn’t get the window closed fast enough when the leaf blowers guy went by does care. But you know, screw em. It’s just a kid. There are lots of them. And it is his fault for being weak. /S. Society is judged on how it cares for its most vulnerable.

Can you please give me any example of some guy using a 2 stroke leaf blower causing anyone to nearly die because some neighbor breathing the exhaust through an open window? And people don't care because there are "lots of kids"? Wow..

Also...the law does not only target two strokes...it bans clean 4 strokes also. It bans all engines that produce less than 25 gross horsepower, including lawn mowers, weed trimmers, chain saws, golf carts, specialty vehicles, generators and pumps. So again...convince me...a normal logical person who also wants to breathe clean air, why we need this? Give me actual specific data that justifies why this specific industry is banned and our freedom of choice of using a small ICE should be taken away?

[move on]

Originally Posted by Homeby5

Can you please give me any example of some guy using a 2 stroke leaf blower causing anyone to nearly die because some neighbor breathing the exhaust through an open window? And people don't care because there are "lots of kids"? Wow..

Also...the law does not only target two strokes...it bans clean 4 strokes also. It bans all engines that produce less than 25 gross horsepower, including lawn mowers, weed trimmers, chain saws, golf carts, specialty vehicles, generators and pumps. So again...convince me...a normal logical person who also wants to breathe clean air, why we need this? Give me actual specific data that justifies why this specific industry is banned and our freedom of choice of using a small ICE should be taken away?

There is absolutely no credible data that proves the emissions of small engines are harmful to the public. This rule banning them is a good example of CARB overstepping its bounds. Now here's the bad part. The EPA is taking its marching orders from CARB so you can expect the same rule to be implemented nationwide.

[radar]

Originally Posted by Homeby5

Can you please give me any example of some guy using a 2 stroke leaf blower causing anyone to nearly die because some neighbor breathing the exhaust through an open window? And people don't care because there are "lots of kids"? Wow..

Also...the law does not only target two strokes...it bans clean 4 strokes also. It bans all engines that produce less than 25 gross horsepower, including lawn mowers, weed trimmers, chain saws, golf carts, specialty vehicles, generators and pumps. So again...convince me...a normal logical person who also wants to breathe clean air, why we need this? Give me actual specific data that justifies why this specific industry is banned and our freedom of choice of using a small ICE should be taken away?

In internet speak this forward slash with an S /S means sarcasm.

Talk to any medical professional and ask what can set off a severe situation with people with emphysema, asthma or COPD. Yes. Engine exhaust can do that. And it’s completely unecessary.

[radar]

Originally Posted by move on

There is absolutely no credible data that proves the emissions of small engines are harmful to the public. This rule banning them is a good example of CARB overstepping its bounds. Now here's the bad part. The EPA is taking its marching orders from CARB so you can expect the same rule to be implemented nationwide.

You seriously believe that the blue haze of exhaust coming off of a small engine (or any engine) has no effect on human health? Think I’m done with this thread. Wow. Unsubscribed.

[tetranz]

Originally Posted by Homeby5

Typical response from social media where people desperately try to validate an opinion that is illogical by using extreme arguments in the discussion and thinking they have a drop the mic moment.
To any reasonable person, your example makes no sense to the current discussion. There are already local noise ordinances to deal with your specific example regarding your neighbors being loud at certain times of the day or night while using an ICE. Using your logic, do we ban everything that can be used to break noise ordinances already established? Do we ban guitars, drums, car radios, outboard motors, etc.. Of course not, but any of these items...and literally hundreds of other legal noise makers can be used to disturb the normal resting periods of our society. That's why mist localities write broad laws restricting noise...no matter the origin.
So, I am open to a change of mind regarding freedom, but for this polite discussion, can you give another reason why small ICE's should warrant new laws that removes personal choices of people that prefer ICE's?

Your response to me and to others immediately above clarifies what you're really arguing about.

You talk about "the very important point of freedom of personal choice" but happily accept noise control laws. Those laws restrict freedom of personal choice. You and I can probably agree that noise control laws are necessary and reasonable for us all to get along when living close together.

How is an air quality law any different to a noise control law? How is sending harmful or annoying sound waves around a neighborhood any different to sending harmful emissions? You accept the enforced restrictive control of one but not the other.

I chose the noise example to illustrate a difference.

Excessive noise, if it is bad enough, is an immediate thing that we can all sense without special instruments or scientific opinion. Emissions, sometime invisible, are not so obvious. To understand the effects we need more than our senses can tell us in the moment. Most of us are not qualified to evaluate the effects, especially accumulative long term.

I think what you're really arguing about is whether or not the emissions from these small engines are actually harmful. You clearly don't believe they are. That's fine, you can have that opinion but I think it's misleading to twist it into a personal freedom thing.

[tankcj]

As a young kid growing up in SoCal in the 60s, I can tell you that the smog was so bad, your chest would hurt when you took a deep breath after playing outside all day. CA played a big part in making the mfrs build cleaning burning cars and lead free fuel. It was a painful time in the 70s and 80s while trying to make cleaner burning cars but we got through it and we’ll get through this. Its a good thing.

[move on]

I diagree that government regulations had such a big role in eliminating smog. Clean air was mostly achieved by technological improvements in combustion systems that were implemented for efficiency and cost savings. Case in point: Mexico City had a much worse pollution problem than SoCal but if you go there now it is mostly cleaned up despite that they never had an agressive EPA. Diesel engines spewed out massive quantities of black soot a few decades ago but today with improved fuel injection systems the exhausts are clean.

[dbircky]

Under 25 horsepower? Hold my beer:

https://youtu.be/u17ll043Ld8

[Ldubs]

Originally Posted by Homeby5

Can you please give me any example of some guy using a 2 stroke leaf blower causing anyone to nearly die because some neighbor breathing the exhaust through an open window? And people don't care because there are "lots of kids"? Wow..

Also...the law does not only target two strokes...it bans clean 4 strokes also. It bans all engines that produce less than 25 gross horsepower, including lawn mowers, weed trimmers, chain saws, golf carts, specialty vehicles, generators and pumps. So again...convince me...a normal logical person who also wants to breathe clean air, why we need this? Give me actual specific data that justifies why this specific industry is banned and our freedom of choice of using a small ICE should be taken away?

I think small outboards are excluded. A lot of rich folk use those on their sail boats.

Just joking folks (kinda).