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Old 10-21-2021, 01:09 AM   #169
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Originally Posted by move on View Post
There is absolutely no credible data that proves the emissions of small engines are harmful to the public. This rule banning them is a good example of CARB overstepping its bounds. Now here's the bad part. The EPA is taking its marching orders from CARB so you can expect the same rule to be implemented nationwide.
First off, states can have more restrictive regulations than federal regulations.

For example, at the power plant I worked at in California the threshold for immediately reporting an oil spill was any. In another state where I worked it was 25 gallons.

So a law can be passed in California but that does not mean it will survive legal challenges. For that rule to be applied to the US, congress would have to pass a law and POTUS would have to sign it.

There would still be legal challenges.

Second when considering health effects, association is not causation. and it is the dose that makes the poison.

For example, clean air causes asthma. As the air gets cleaner, rates of asthma have increased.
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Old 10-21-2021, 07:33 AM   #170
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As said before.
This is nothing but a political shell game. Moving the pollution to other sources and looking in the wrong places to lay blame.
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Old 10-21-2021, 08:39 AM   #171
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First off, states can have more restrictive regulations than federal regulations.

For example, at the power plant I worked at in California the threshold for immediately reporting an oil spill was any. In another state where I worked it was 25 gallons.

So a law can be passed in California but that does not mean it will survive legal challenges. For that rule to be applied to the US, congress would have to pass a law and POTUS would have to sign it.

There would still be legal challenges.

Second when considering health effects, association is not causation. and it is the dose that makes the poison.

For example, clean air causes asthma. As the air gets cleaner, rates of asthma have increased.
The law is already in place. The Clean Air Act of 1966 authorizes the EPA to regulate certain atmospheric chemicals, namely, ground-level ozone (O3), carbon monoxide (CO), particulate matter (PM10, PM2.5), lead (Pb), sulfur dioxide (SO2), and nitrogen dioxide (NO2). While well intentioned at the time, the EPA has grown into a monster that seeks to control every aspect of our lives. They are presently working to add CO2 to the list. This is a gas that we all exhale with each breath. What could possibly go wrong with that?
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Old 10-21-2021, 10:16 AM   #172
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I'd like to see a report that shows that the people who use these small engines a lot, landscapers for example, have a higher rate of illness or a shortened lifespan because of it. Then we can read it and decide if it's credible.
"There is absolutely no credible data that proves the emissions of small engines are harmful to the public."

My earlier response was to the statement above in quotes.

A quick Google will show that every scientific body is going to confirm that two-story engines are extremely dirty polluters (by several magnitudes) compared to four-stroke engines. They put out large amounts of VOCs and particulate matter. You won't find a legitimate science based body that would claim otherwise. Sadly, it is easy to find solid data on the internet about the number of deaths and illnesses caused by air pollution. Try finding any authoritative report that says otherwise.

As the risk of being repetitive, I do not agree with the complete ban of all small ICE's. But I think that is it time for two-strokes to go. They are old technology and only around because they are cheaper.
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Old 10-21-2021, 12:35 PM   #173
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What about all of the environmental damage from lithium batteries that will vbe used to power all of these new tools? Remember...China dominates the market of mining and processing lithium and it turns out to be far more environmentally harmful than a small ICE.
As an example, in May 2016, dead fish were found in the waters of the Liqi River, where a toxic chemical leaked from the Ganzizhou Rongda Lithium mine. Cow and yak carcasses were also found floating downstream, dead from drinking contaminated water. It was the third incident in seven years due to a sharp increase in mining activity, including operations run by China’s BYD, one of the world’ biggest supplier of lithium-ion batteries. After the second incident in 2013, officials closed the mine, but fish started dying again when it reopened in April 2016. There are countless other examples that we know of and many more we probably don't.
What about the disposal? You guys realize we ship these things to east Africa..right? Google African Electronic waste dumps. You will be shocked. Also...because lithium cathodes degrade over time, they cannot be placed into new batteries. It is estimated that between 2021 and 2030, about 12.85 million tons of lithium ion batteries will go offline worldwide, and over 10 million tons of lithium, cobalt, nickel and manganese will be mined for new batteries. read about the massive pollution to water and soil from mining these elements. Again..shocking.
Sooo...again, I'm all for a cleaner world. Hell yes. But stopping some small ICE's from running and converting to battery power costs MANY American jobs, boosts China's industry which is the dirtiest on Earth, pollutes the world, and IMO, isn't worth the feel good effect some get from this. I want logical solutions that keeps America working.
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Old 10-21-2021, 12:55 PM   #174
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So on the subject of generators and camping (this is an RV site after all).....am I the only one thinking why not just buy one in Oregon, Nevada or Arizona, all of which border the state....not to mention the other 49 states in the union

just wondering how government agencies think they will monitor something like this????????
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Old 10-21-2021, 12:58 PM   #175
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What about all of the environmental damage from lithium batteries that will vbe used to power all of these new tools? Remember...China dominates the market of mining and processing lithium and it turns out to be far more environmentally harmful than a small ICE.
As an example, in May 2016, dead fish were found in the waters of the Liqi River, where a toxic chemical leaked from the Ganzizhou Rongda Lithium mine. Cow and yak carcasses were also found floating downstream, dead from drinking contaminated water. It was the third incident in seven years due to a sharp increase in mining activity, including operations run by China’s BYD, one of the world’ biggest supplier of lithium-ion batteries. After the second incident in 2013, officials closed the mine, but fish started dying again when it reopened in April 2016. There are countless other examples that we know of and many more we probably don't.
What about the disposal? You guys realize we ship these things to east Africa..right? Google African Electronic waste dumps. You will be shocked. Also...because lithium cathodes degrade over time, they cannot be placed into new batteries. It is estimated that between 2021 and 2030, about 12.85 million tons of lithium ion batteries will go offline worldwide, and over 10 million tons of lithium, cobalt, nickel and manganese will be mined for new batteries. read about the massive pollution to water and soil from mining these elements. Again..shocking.
Sooo...again, I'm all for a cleaner world. Hell yes. But stopping some small ICE's from running and converting to battery power costs MANY American jobs, boosts China's industry which is the dirtiest on Earth, pollutes the world, and IMO, isn't worth the feel good effect some get from this. I want logical solutions that keeps America working.
Good point on filling our landfills with spent lithium batteries. The projections on the tons of spent batteries that will need to be disposed of in the future is scary. My understanding, which I admit is very limited, is that the component parts of lithium batteries could be recycled. They are not now, except for some metals, because it is not profitable to do so.

I continue to think we need a balanced approach to move forward. Ban the worst ICE's. Continue to adopt clean energy options, including both battery powered equipment and improved ICE technology.
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Old 10-21-2021, 04:57 PM   #176
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The law is already in place. The Clean Air Act of 1966 authorizes ........
There is no Clean Air Act of 1966. Since it has been more than 30 years taking graduate level environmental engineering classes, I thought I would look it up.

"This report summarizes the Clean Air Act and its major regulatory requirements. The principal statute addressing air quality concerns, the Clean Air Act was first enacted in 1955, with major revisions in 1970, 1977, and 1990. The act:

requires EPA to set health-based standards for ambient air quality;

sets deadlines for the achievement of those standards by state and local governments;

requires EPA to set national emission standards for large or ubiquitous sources of air pollution, including motor vehicles, power plants, and other industrial sources;

....."

My point is that the US Congress passes laws. Laws become regulations enforced by regulators.

Say I am boondocking in an approved BLM area. I am running my 2-stroke generator and a 'regulator' tells me to stop because I am polluting.

I would first ask for the regulation being cited. I would look it up and then ask if we were in a non-attainment area. I would then advise against providing me with evidence of a felony by writing me up.

It does not matter if you think 2 stroke engines are polluting. You have show what I am doing is causing harm.

Do I think we have gone too far with reducing emissions? Yes! The mercury rule for coal plants, low sulfur diesel, and DEF are examples of expensive regulations with minimal benefits.

However, it was debated in the US Congress and law were passed.

On a practical side when enjoying RVing. I did boondock in California earlier this year and other places. Did not see any 'regulators'. Also did not have a campfire.

There are lots of problems in the world and lots of people causing problems. It also easy to avoid.
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Old 10-21-2021, 05:07 PM   #177
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Eventually California will ban California and they'll just eliminate themselves.
Now that is funny
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Old 10-21-2021, 05:46 PM   #178
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New Off Road Engines <25 HP Banned by 2024

I'm late to the discussion but before opining I looked at the new law which bans the sale of all new internal combustion engines <25 HP by 2024. The new law does not differentiate on fuel type (natural gas, propane, gasoline, diesel, etc.) used for those small engines. News media has focused on gasoline powered "yard tools" as the devices to suffer from this new law.

In California where the electrical grid is less than reliable, homeowners will not be able to purchase a new stand-by generator in California for their homes starting in 2024. Presumably Californians can not purchase an RV equipped with a generator in California. The new law, from what I could research, does not ban the use of small off road internal combustion engines (ICE) by 2024. The new law only forbids the sale of new small off road engines. So if I interpret the new law correctly, Californians can go to Arizona to purchase a home stand-by generator, purchase a Weed Eater, etc. The only thing the law does is adversely impact businesses that sell small ICE equipment /tools. Presuming Californians will go to neighboring states to purchase generators, purchase an RV with a generator, purchase a gasoline powered law mower or pressure washer, etc. the new law will accomplish very little in reducing emissions from small engines.

Am I interpreting the new law properly? Does the California legislature expect home owners to "plug in" a stand-by generator when they lose power from the electrical grid? Will California construct a wall to prevent an new gasoline powered lawn mower from entering from Arizona?
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Old 10-21-2021, 07:05 PM   #179
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As a young kid growing up in SoCal in the 60s, I can tell you that the smog was so bad, your chest would hurt when you took a deep breath after playing outside all day. CA played a big part in making the mfrs build cleaning burning cars and lead free fuel. It was a painful time in the 70s and 80s while trying to make cleaner burning cars but we got through it and we’ll get through this. Its a good thing.

^^^^ THIS RIGHT HERE
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Was back in the Valley for software training in 2008. The improvement was amazing.
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Old 10-22-2021, 06:06 AM   #180
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Somehow this thread seems to have gotten onto the subject of smog-causing pollution from small engines. These pollutants, as pointed out, are produced in greater quantities by 2-stroke engines than 4-stroke. That's all okay and true, but misses the point of the bill, which is attempting to address not only those pollutants but also CO2, which those 4-stroke engines produce just as much of as the 2-stroke engines. CO2 might not lead to smog or asthma, but is the pollutant of greater concern today.
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Old 10-22-2021, 06:50 AM   #181
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Somehow this thread seems to have gotten onto the subject of smog-causing pollution from small engines. These pollutants, as pointed out, are produced in greater quantities by 2-stroke engines than 4-stroke. That's all okay and true, but misses the point of the bill, which is attempting to address not only those pollutants but also CO2, which those 4-stroke engines produce just as much of as the 2-stroke engines. CO2 might not lead to smog or asthma, but is the pollutant of greater concern today.
CO2 is not a pollutant. It exists naturally in the atmosphere and is necessary for life on earth. One could say that it is the opposite of a pollutant.
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Old 10-22-2021, 10:45 AM   #182
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Somehow this thread seems to have gotten onto the subject of smog-causing pollution from small engines. These pollutants, as pointed out, are produced in greater quantities by 2-stroke engines than 4-stroke. That's all okay and true, but misses the point of the bill, which is attempting to address not only those pollutants but also CO2, which those 4-stroke engines produce just as much of as the 2-stroke engines. CO2 might not lead to smog or asthma, but is the pollutant of greater concern today.
We need more photosynthesis. More trees! Wouldn't it be great if that would solve the CO2 problem.

I have to agree with you the focus is now on the greenhouse gas/effect.
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