Does the ADA Act apply to Campground Bathrooms?

[Hicks3456]

Yes ADA applies - building departments will not make them make changes unless they apply for permit for new construction. Then they must comply.

Another thing that will usually make them change is an ADA suit - if the place is sued not only are they fined but will have to make changes

[Deny]

I recently finished a year long disability episode, resulting from a bungled knee replacement ( which ended only after 6 months of rehab at the fitness center)

We finally got out in our TT, about 7 months into the ordeal. I had a folding ramp, and a walker. And, every act , even the smallest one, was a struggle. Getting in & out, up & down, loading & unloading, was a struggle. The showers & the stalls were really pretty accommodating.

My thought is, if you can load up & go, get in & get out of the RV...the bathhouses are easy.

It takes a lot of perseverance to camp, if you don't move around well. I admire people that try, that keep going when they hurt, or when it's not easy to get around. We all get there, in one way or another, some of us sooner than others. Let's be kind to those folks, what they do is not easy.

[Funengineer]

Not all disabilities are visible. Please don’t judge someone because their disability isn’t obvious to you.

[Sagertd]

Originally Posted by RonLC

Does the Americans with Disabilities Act require a campground that rents to the public, such as a KOA, to have compliant restrooms? High toilets, bars, ramps, etc.

Yes to the best of my knowledge no one is exempt from ADA.

[BruceDeville]

Originally Posted by RonLC

Does the Americans with Disabilities Act require a campground that rents to the public, such as a KOA, to have compliant restrooms? High toilets, bars, ramps, etc.

Yes

[richardskaff]

Hello.

I continue to be amazed that after so many years, there is such a complete lack of understanding about such an important national civil rights regulation!

Of course, I do understand that most folks aren't state and federal code and/or regulatory experts, but then, to speak with such authority, and suggesting you actually know what you're talking about when you clearly don't is very concerning. It's also an indication that the needed education about disability rights by the U.S. Access Board, the federal agencybresponsibkebfor the development of the ADA Standards, has clearly failed.

I'm sure most in this site don't want to become experts in either design concepts for built environment accessibility or state and federal codes and standards that require physical accessibility in the built environment.

So, I won't go into the details necessary to help you truly understand those requirements, but will say that specifically, new construction MUST BE FULLY ACCESSIBLE, while existing facilities (public and private facilities open to the public) must become accessible. The ADA has been a federal mandate since 1990 when the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA) became a national disability rights law. Neither "historical" or "older" buildings are exempt, but must be analyzed to determine what areas within those buildings/facilities must be made accessible, and how they should be made accessible..

Unlike many state building codes, (like the California Building Code), which trigger accessibility in existing buildings when remodeling takes place, the ADA is a civil rights regulation that has been in place for 30 years and requires buildings (both public and private, open to the public) to become accessible, whether remodeling is taking place or not! This isn't a new mandate, but one that has been in place for enough time that it shouldn't be a surprise to business owners, and yes, including those business owners of campgrounds, that they should have been developing a plan to bring their facilities into compliance with the ADA Standards. And let me be clear, the ADA doesn't necessarily require business owners to make every part of their business accessible, but they must provide their goods and services they are making available to the public in a way that's accessible to everyone, including people with disabilities!

The ADA is a federal law and the ADA Standards within that law are only enforceable by one of two ways - the federal government - or by individuals with disabilities or one representing a person with a disability. Although it appears many of you in this forum may think it's wrong and not fair that some people have filed lawsuits against businesses and/or public entities, you must understand that they wouldn't and couldnt bring that lawsuit (a lawsuit is a difficult and time consuming process) against a business or public entity if there weren't violations of the Standards or the ADA Regulation. Courts don't allow "frivolous" lawsuits. If Congress and Bush had created the ADA with actual effective enforcement, lawsuits by individuals wouldn't be necessary. Because they didn't, and the U.S. DOJ only does "significant" cases, the only other opportunity for an individual with a disability to protect their rights may be a lawsuit.

I am a person with a disability who uses a wheelchair for mobility. After leaving the restaurant business with almost 20 years of experience, I created three positions within the City of San Francisco - Chief Building Inspector, the ADA Coordinator for the City's Department of Public Works, and Deputy Director of the Mayor's Office on Disability which I opened at the request of the 4th Mayor I worked for, Mayor Willie Brown. The last Mayor I worked for is now California's Governor, Gavin Newsom. I was also appointed to three of the U.S. Access Board's Advisory Committees during my tenure with the City. I have also been on most of the State architect's access advisory committees and presently am appointed to the California Building Standards Commission Access Advisory Committee. And, for 4 years starting in lthe late '80's, I was both a Mayor and Town Council member in the Town I lived in for more than ten years.

If you have any interest in learning more about what state and federal accessibility codes and standards require, please contact me at the email listed below.

Richard Skaff, Executive Director
Designing Accessible Communities
Email: richardskaff1@gmail.com
Cell: 707-755-1681

[Bobby F]

Originally Posted by Captn John

Cannot be talking about CGs. How does one that requires a wheelchair go up/down the steps and maneuver in any RV?

I took a number of fun (and rather rigorous) camping trips with my ex-brother-in-law, with him in his conversion van with the wheelchair lift and a bed, and his electric chair. State parks, mostly, with good access to facilities. We did try one private park, but access was poor.

[Bug512]

Since I work in the building field the answer is yes, for new or retrofitted construction. But.. for example the campground could do improvements and simply get a accessible port-a-jon and comply with some of the laws. This of course depending on inspectors and such.

Personally they should have at least one bathroom along with ADA site available.


Kind of related but this will make your head shake. An ADA compliant privy on the Appalachian Trail.

Toilet talk: Volunteers build state-of the-art privy on Mount LeConte

[richardskaff]

Yes, you are correct - the ADA has and does apply. And, as you suggest, the local building department does not enforce the ADA or its Standards (the Standards look like state building code, but are not). As long as the work done to create access truly does that, but a different design than the standards was used, the work would typically be accepted as complying by the US Department of Justilce. I use the term "typically" because the work must be reviewed first to see if it truly created the necessary physical access.

[richardskaff]

A portable toilet IS NOT CONSIDERED A PERMANENT AND COMPLYING SOLUTION! It's a temporary use facility. Certainly, if a public bathroom in a park or campground is being remodeled, using a wheelchair accessible portable toilet temporarily while a bathroom or bathrooms are being made accessible would be an acceptable use of a portable toilet. Using a wheelchair accessible portable toilet as a permanent solution while all permanent fixed toilets at the facility aren't accessible, isn't.

Please be responsible with your statements and actually know what the facts are before making a statement. Do you "work in the building field" as an architect, contractor, or plan or site inspector for a local building department? If so, as an architect and contractor, you must typically be licensed by the State you work in and are REQUIRED to know BOTH state and federal access code and standard requirements. If you review plans or inspect building sites for a local building department, you are required to know the State code you're supposed to be enforcing!

[richardskaff]

I've never "done" either the Appalachian or Pacific Trails, so I don't know whether there are any "bathrooms" or pit toilets available along each. But, if there are, and at each site one is available, it must be wheelchair accessible. Although you may have hiked those trails but have never seen anyone In a wheelchair on the Trails, that doesn't mean there never has been or will be a person using either Trail who will need a wheelchair accessible toilet.

[kcdogger]

Originally Posted by richardskaff

I've never "done" either the Appalachian or Pacific Trails, so I don't know whether there are any "bathrooms" or pit toilets available along each. But, if there are, and at each site one is available, it must be wheelchair accessible. Although you may have hiked those trails but have never seen anyone In a wheelchair on the Trails, that doesn't mean there never has been or will be a person using either Trail who will need a wheelchair accessible toilet.

I believe the point of the Appalachian is that the location is not accessible by a disabled person confined to a wheelchair. If that is the case, would the location be exempt from ADA compliance. There are many similar situations such as remote hunting camps, back country campsites in national parks etc. These locations sometimes have primitive pit toilets or composting toilets. If the Park Service or the outfitter chose to renovate or replace such a structure would it need to be ADA compliant even though the location is inaccessible for wheelchairs?

BTW, when I owned RV parks we spent thousands of dollars making sure our facilities were compliant. What I take exception to is when requirements forced us to abandon amenities, such as the miniature golf course as I posted about earlier. I am lawsuit adverse and not willing to take a chance as to whether or not upgrading to ADA compliance would be ruled to be excessively difficult or expensive. Without a system to examine a proposed construction and rule it exempt, it is just better to do without it. As for lawsuits, what bothers me is not that I can be sued, but that the threat of a suit is used to blackmail otherwise innocent business owners. I know my rights and obligations, have the financial strength to fight when necessary and have a dang good attorney, but others do not. Faced with a demand letter from an attorney saying pay $xxxx or we will be filing an ADA lawsuit, many business owners panic and just pay, whether or not the criteria to file that lawsuit has been met. It is legalized extortion under the cover of "helping the disabled" when in fact it is nothing of the sort. That is why our modus operandi with disabled guests was to make no effort to extend their stay, no effort to seek to have them return and never go out of our way thinking we are helping, when in fact we may be painting ourselves into a corner.

[Solo_RV_Guy]

Originally Posted by richardskaff

A portable toilet IS NOT CONSIDERED A PERMANENT AND COMPLYING SOLUTION! It's a temporary use facility. Certainly, if a public bathroom in a park or campground is being remodeled, using a wheelchair accessible portable toilet temporarily while a bathroom or bathrooms are being made accessible would be an acceptable use of a portable toilet. Using a wheelchair accessible portable toilet as a permanent solution while all permanent fixed toilets at the facility aren't accessible, isn't.

Please be responsible with your statements and actually know what the facts are before making a statement. Do you "work in the building field" as an architect, contractor, or plan or site inspector for a local building department? If so, as an architect and contractor, you must typically be licensed by the State you work in and are REQUIRED to know BOTH state and federal access code and standard requirements. If you review plans or inspect building sites for a local building department, you are required to know the State code you're supposed to be enforcing!

Hi Richard, and thanks for joining us at iRV2. I hope your replies don't get lost in a sea of noise. I suggested that folks do a search on Title III of the Act but no one took the bait.

One of the things I'm very glad to see you mention is that the ADA is *civil rights* legislation.

Good luck in spreading the correct information about this oft-misunderstood topic.

[richardskaff]

I didn't want to embarrass anyone, but the level of misinformation was unacceptable . Thanks for allowing my comments. Please let me know if you have "issues" with any comments I make on this site in the future.