Fresh Diesel vs Biodiesel

[Itchytoe]

Originally Posted by imnprsd

We also prefer nicer looking filling stations but have one last question for our experts:

When diesel fuel flows slowly out of the pump, what does that imply?

END.

Slow pumps are a problem with that particular station's pumps. Bad grounding or low voltage to the pumps, or a faulty nozzle sensor that thinks the nozzle handle is just barely pulled when you've got that sucker opened up all the way and are cursing at it for being so slow... I suppose it could be a filter that's so badly clogged that it's starving the pumps, but again, that's the station's problem. It really doesn't mean anything about the actual fuel. Just go to a different fuel station.

[96Bounder1st]

Thank you for the very informative post. As an owner of a 2002 8.3 or possible 2001 I have found your post very informative.

Waiting for round 3.

Terry

[NHRA225]

Me ? I think the OP has beat this topic to death ! Never ending info !
The reality is there nothing out there But Bio .
Reality is- Change Your Fuel Filters Frequently - Like 5 to 8 K Miles and You'll be fine! just my Experience the last 20 yrs and Always Fill at High Flow Truck Stops Like Flying J/Pilot/Road Ranger Ect that use a Lot of Fresh Fuel. If you feel the need to add a Fuel additive Try Diesel Kleen Additive it Works for me -1 Qt at every 50 Gal or so at fill up ! You Guys are Way Over Thinking This Fuel Deal !

[Ray,IN]

For those that missed it, here is a 2007 HFRR test performed to ISO standards, ranking all popular fuel additives: https://www.dieselplace.com/forum/76...y-results.html
You will note, all lubricity additives below # 13 performed worse than diesel fuel with NO ADDITIVES!

[palehorse89]

And 98% of RV's fueling , don't know what they are pumping ...........and never matters.........

[Ray,IN]

Originally Posted by palehorse89

And 98% of RV's fueling , don't know what they are pumping ...........and never matters.........

I just filled up a Murphys, diesel was $3.09. When I had finished re-fueling and hung up the nozzle I noticed a sticker on the diesel pump stating "Contains 10% Ethanol". I nearly had a heart attack. Grabbed my cell phone and called Murphys corporate HQ in AR. They listened, then said we have your phone # and will call you back as soon as we investigate. Well, 10 minutes later I got that return call, saying there is no Ethanol in our diesel fuel, the stickers are a mistake.
Now I'm listening to my engine very closely for any change in sound or performance JIC.
I really blame myself for not waitng until I located a PFJ.

[NHRA225]

I've Never Ever seen Diesel with and Ethanol additive !!!
Cool it Ray I'm sure your Fine !

[mhs4771]

I've seen that sticker a few times. Remember those Gas attendants are generally lucky if they can spell their own name. So they're given stickers to put on the pumps and that's exactly what they do, sticker on each and every pump, gas, diesel, or what ever.
Sorry to the name comment to any former attendants.

[Itchytoe]

Originally Posted by mhs4771

I've seen that sticker a few times. Remember those Gas attendants are generally lucky if they can spell their own name. So they're given stickers to put on the pumps and that's exactly what they do, sticker on each and every pump, gas, diesel, or what ever.
Sorry to the name comment to any former attendants.

I worked at a gas station just after high school for a while. I can assure you, there are no rocket scientists working there. The people aren't always idiots, but you're right. "Go put these stickers on the pumps." means every single pump is getting a sticker, on both sides, and maybe even one on the handle.

[Ray,IN]

Originally Posted by NHRA225

I've Never Ever seen Diesel with and Ethanol additive !!!
Cool it Ray I'm sure your Fine !

Ethanol in diesel fuel was seriously considered about 15 yrs ago.
The idea is, for all practical purposes, DOA today.

The main/foremost problem is flammability, which is not present with diesel fuel.
Thus my concern, think pre-detonation ramifications in a compression-combustion engine.https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...60852404001488

[VP Chianese]

Originally Posted by Ray,IN

Ethanol in diesel fuel was seriously considered about 15 yrs ago.
The idea is, for all practical purposes, DOA today.

The main/foremost problem is flammability, which is not present with diesel fuel.
Thus my concern, think pre-detonation ramifications in a compression-combustion engine.https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...60852404001488

I also noticed a sticker at a Pilot in the truck lanes just this past week in Indiana which said "Bio 5 - 20%'. So now they are covered no matter what is in the tank.

[imnprsd]

My 2003 Cummins-ISC-CAPS fuel injection pump failed at about 80,000 miles and many attribute this to ULSD fuels introduced in 2006.

Apparently, ULSD fuels removed a lot of the sulfur content in diesel fuel that served to lubricate your CAPS injection pump.

Can anyone tell me if Cummins CAPS Injector pump (and low pressure vacuum gear driven pump) is basically the same as used on later models that went to the HPFR system? ...And if so, when was the last year they used this design?

The reason I ask is because I know on my CAPS pump the low pressure gear driven pump inside the CAPS pump sucks fuel from the tank (under vacuum) and it often cannot deliver enough fuel to the high pressure side of the CAPS pump if air leaks into the fuel line (typically at the lift pump gasket) and the resulting fuel starvation, coupled with lower lubricity in ULSD fuel, can cause premature CAPS pump failure.

However, I don't know if 2004-2009 Cummins engines (with HPFR systems) need to be concerned about this too?


Moving right along...

After reading this thread, I think we are all better understand what type of diesel fuels “blends” we are buying at the pump. And it appears there is not much difference (if any) between brands.

Therefore, I am no longer afraid of buying diesel fuels from smaller stations – so long as they look like they are clean and busy and modern. However, the latter has more to do with the assumption these smaller stations filter fuel as good as those diesel truck stops (Pilot, Flying-J, Loves, etc) and it assumes their storage tanks in the ground are not compromised in one form or another. I can tell you this: I have never got a bad diesel tank fill-up in the last 4 years and I have driven almost 50,000 miles during this time.

In addition, I think everyone accepts that 20% bio-fuels may have more lubricity vs. Diesel #2, but those animal fats and vegetable oil blends are no replacement for the lubrication sulfur content that was taken out of diesel fuels when ULSD was introduced back in 2006. And so, us “CAPS owners” turn to diesel fuel additives for help.

…And like I have said before: I like Howe's, because it's cheaper than PS Diesel and Lucas and I think I actually get better performance when I add it to my tank vs. when I don't add it.

There is one more, very important thing you can do to make sure you never starve your diesel CAPS fuel injection pump again, and that would be to add a FASS electric fuel pump, with 2 additional fuel filters to your fuel deliver system.

This upgrade will ensure your always have +15-18PSI of positive fuel pressure delivered to your CAPS pump; and that means no more fuel starvation when you are climbing grades or accelerating on to a freeway.

Here is the link you can go to for more information on how I added the FASS Titanium “Signature Series” (96GPH – Same As Dodge Fitment) to my Freightliner chassis used in my 2004 Itasca “Horizon” 40AD.

http://www.irv2.com/forums/f123/cumm...ml#post4976841

• If you want to know more about adding a Power Chip to your engine, read the above thread too!


FASS FUEL PUMP INSTALLATION NOTES

I have a Winnebago/Itasca “Horizon” 40AD and a Freightliner chassis. And because I have an Independent Front Suspension (IFS) there was no room for me to mount the FASS fuel pump near my gas tank. However, I found it very easy to mount the FASS pump in my engine bay. All I did was take out my primary filer and install the Fass fuel pump (aka lift pump) in its place.

Further, my engine bay already had 2 fuel filters remotely mounted and I have a side radiator. So when I added the FASS fuel pump I ended up with 3 fuel filters – which I like very much. And now I can filter my fuel down to 2 microns. And because the FASS fuel pump returns unused fuel to the tank it is constantly filtering the fuel over-and-over. I also think this clean-up my fuel tank and because the filters are keeping the tank cleaner than before, I am not so concerned about algae building up in the tank.

Note: If you have a Monaco you may find it better if you located the Fass fuel pump near your fuel tank. You guys also should have easy access to the top of your fuel tank too. There you can get to your fuel lines and install a “T-fitting” to return the fuel. And if you don’t have an IFS then you probably have a lot of room up-front too!

*** In all applications, regardless of chassis type, you will be bypassing your Cummins stock lift pump and that will eliminate most of the vacuum problems associated with poor fuel delivery. This included both CAPS and HPFR injection systems! So the FASS upgrade is not just for us CAPS owners and you HPFR owners will like it too.

=== QUESTIONS ===

I would like to know more about what diesel fuel additives can (or cannot) be ordered by a filling stations, because as far as I can tell, all diesel fuel cannot be the same!!!

I base this on the many, many fill-ups this year covering 9,000 miles of driving in just 2.5 months.

For example, I was in the New England states and every station was selling “no-sticker” diesel or the pump said Diesel #2. However, I also got the worst performance and MPG on these so called higher BTU fuels despite the rough and curvy roads. I expected better.

So what I am saying is that I am NOT a fan of Maine and New York diesel fuels and they were all labeled Diesel #2. And last year I hated the Iowa and Wisconsin bio-fuels… with California and Oregon bio-fuels to be worse than everyone! ...And I am judging this rather crude comparisons on torque performance and MPG; and not the way my engine ran on the flat highway. Why is this?

How do we know, by region, if we are getting a higher quality diesel fuel or a lower quality diesel fuel? (And please don't debate what I mean by "quality." This is a general evaluation and if I feel less torque and get less MPG then I'm going call that fuel "quality.") Note: If you know the answer, can you put it in simple terms so that most of us can understand your answer. Thank you!

[Itchytoe]

Well, you've managed to ask some questions that are a bit more difficult to answer this time around, but I hope I can still help.

Originally Posted by imnprsd

=== QUESTIONS ===

I would like to know more about what diesel fuel additives can (or cannot) be ordered by a filling stations, because as far as I can tell, all diesel fuel cannot be the same!!!

Filling stations don't order additives for their fuel. They get the fuel produced in the nearest refinery of the company that they are contracted to sell. What I mean, is that each Conoco filling station sells diesel that the nearest Conoco refinery produces for sale. The tankers supply fuel to several filling stations without refilling their tank between. The diesel that Conoco on 14th street gets literally came out of the same tank as the Conoco on 16th street. BP fills BP stations. Sonoco fills Sonoco stations, etc. There's no way for a particular station to get different additives in their fuel. Refineries just can't do that logistically. The station itself could, theoretically, purchase additives to add directly to their storage tanks, but that's not fiscally feasible. Each station makes a few pennies per gallon of fuel they sell. They make their money from the snacks and trinkets inside. Adding 100 gallons of some additive would wipe out their entire profit for the fuel with no benefit.


Different refineries do have slightly different blends of hydrocarbons though. A Conoco refinery in Houston and a Conoco refinery in Detroit will produce different blends to cope with local regulations and the fact that Detroit gets much colder than Houston. Detroit will switch to winter blends much sooner than Houston will.

Originally Posted by imnprsd

I base this on the many, many fill-ups this year covering 9,000 miles of driving in just 2.5 months.

For example, I was in the New England states and every station was selling “no-sticker” diesel or the pump said Diesel #2. However, I also got the worst performance and MPG on these so called higher BTU fuels despite the rough and curvy roads. I expected better.



So what I am saying is that I am NOT a fan of Maine and New York diesel fuels and they were all labeled Diesel #2. And last year I hated the Iowa and Wisconsin bio-fuels… with California and Oregon bio-fuels to be worse than everyone! ...And I am judging this rather crude comparisons on torque performance and MPG; and not the way my engine ran on the flat highway. Why is this?

Part of what you're experiencing is just the refineries using different hydrocarbon blends to adhere to local and state regulations. Commiefornia has horrible restrictions on what the refineries can produce, despite the large number of refineries that are in the LA area. You could also be getting summer diesel in Houston, but a winter blend up in New England, where they switch to winter blends much sooner. Those rough and curvy roads will hurt your MPGs every time. New England is also pretty hilly. Hills eat up fuel. Flat roads are better for MPGs.
Honestly, road condition matters more than most people think. Just because you have the same grade of fuel doesn't mean you're going to get the same MPGs everywhere you drive.
If you had #1 diesel instead of #2, you'd have even worse power and MPGs on those roads.

Originally Posted by imnprsd

How do we know, by region, if we are getting a higher quality diesel fuel or a lower quality diesel fuel? (And please don't debate what I mean by "quality." This is a general evaluation and if I feel less torque and get less MPG then I'm going call that fuel "quality.") Note: If you know the answer, can you put it in simple terms so that most of us can understand your answer. Thank you!

Regions that are leading the pack in terms of cleaning up emissions and pandering to the EPA are going to give you "lower quality" fuel at high prices. (Think California and New England.) Regions that aren't trying to make vehicle exhaust smell like flowers aren't as restricted by laws and can give you "higher quality" fuels at lower prices. (Think Texas) It's a big trade off. Want more power? Okay, that requires fuels with higher energy density, but they don't burn as clean. (Jet fuels, diesel, etc.) Want lower emissions? Okay, that requires fuels with low energy density, so you're going to burn a lot of it. (Propane, natural gas, ethanol, etc.) Want more power and lower emissions? Okay, get your checkbook out because we're going to use a high energy density fuel out of necessity, then choke it to death with emissions equipment to clean it up. Then we're going to turbocharge it because that emissions equipment is killing our power numbers. In fact, we're going to put two turbos on it just to overcome the insane back pressure generated by the DPF, and SCR. And now all road going modern diesel engines are turbocharged and choked to death.



It's all a trade off between power, MPGs, and money. Want cheap vehicles that give lots of power? Okay, burn lots of fuel. Want cheap vehicles that get 40+ mpgs? Okay, you get small displacement engines in little cars that can't tow a shoe. Want power and MPGs? Okay, get your checkbook out because a new dually truck is knocking on $100,000. (Crew cab Lariat/King Ranch or equivalent package. I know you can get the work truck versions cheaper.) The 2025 trucks are going to break $100,000. A new truck costs what a house should cost.

[vincee]

I believe gas station owners are making a lot more than pennies per gallon. That was the scenario may be back in the '70s and early '80s but according to an acquaintance of mine just a couple of years ago he was making anywhere between $.36-$.48 Per Gallon of gas sold at a Mobil station which is no longer in the WNY market.