Hot outlet in the house kitchen

[followingsea]

When parked at my son's we plug into an outlet that is on a 20 amp kitchen circuit.

This works until a waffle griddle is plugged in. I put an outlet tester in the unused outlet to remind us not to plug anything into it. Yesterday we noticed the tester was hot and the other outlets were warm.

Measured the outlet and it was about 200 degrees F. I went to replace it today and discovered in was an 15 amp rated outlet that was improperly installed by not using the side terminals.

He lives in Las Vegas and the MH with one A/C unit and the fridge running continuously during hot part of the day.

I popped all the 20 amp breakers and went around the house with the outlet tester. Found 40 (15 amp) outlets on 20 amp breaker. Also found some outlets that I assumed were on 20 amp circuits but were on 15 amp breakers.

The kids paid to have the house meet current code when they moved in but this could have been missed.

So I have a project starting with the circuits with the biggest load. The other outlets on line with the MH are warm but not hot.

This is another case of a poor electrical contact generating heat. I used an infrared thermometer to check in the MH but never occurred to me check other outlets that are not being used.

[Ray,IN]

Sounds like your son should pursue getting his money back from that contractor, OR requiring him to do it right the second time.

[happy2rv]

Originally Posted by followingsea

...
Measured the outlet and it was about 200 degrees F. I went to replace it today and discovered in was an 15 amp rated outlet that was improperly installed by not using the side terminals.
...

I popped all the 20 amp breakers and went around the house with the outlet tester. Found 40 (15 amp) outlets on 20 amp breaker. Also found some outlets that I assumed were on 20 amp circuits but were on 15 amp breakers.
...

Unfortunately, this is up to code and fairly common. As long as there is more than one outlet on a circuit, it is perfectly acceptable to install 15A outlets on a 20A circuit. Cheap back stab electrical outlets are also unfortunately "up to code". I'm not saying these are good ideas, but they would easily pass inspection. If there's only one outlet on a circuit it has to be a 20A outlet for 20A breaker or 15A outlet for 15A breaker.



The thought on 15A outlets is the 15A outlet should be limiting you to 15A draw on a single outlet and with multiple outlets you would be using other outlets to get to 20A capacity. Your usage highlights the folly in this thought process. Technically, your extension cords and adapter are rated to 15A if they fit into a 15A outlet, but there's nothing inherent in the cord to limit you. You could put that same cord in between two 50A dog bones and attempt to draw 50A across it. It wouldn't work very long before it started a fire, but you could try it.

[Persistent]

As posted above, the wiring you reported is up to code in many places. Not only are millions of homes wired this way, but entire power grids are wired this way. If even a small fraction of grid outlets were all drawing near maximum, the grid would fail and shut down. As I remember NY, CA, and many other places used to have major grid shut downs for exactly that reason.

Generally high current devices and large motors are required to be on a single outlet circuit. So AC, furnace fan, sump pump, microwaves and even in some places refrigerators are required to be on separate single outlet circuits. Your RV definitely qualifies for a single outlet circuit. Using a kitchen or garage circuit is not according to code. Thus the caution to be very careful when temporarily using an adapter in a standard 15 or 20 amp circuit.

Your RV is technically a sub panel system. It is likely at least 30 amps. The reason you need an adapter and you can't plug it directly into a 15 amp outlet is to prevent situations like you have discovered. If you are going to do this regularly, you need to get a dedicated circuit run for the RV. Daisy chained household circuits are not intended for that kind of use.

Note: I do not know the criteria you used to decide which house circuits should have 20 amp breakers. The code requires breaker size to match wire size. 14 gauge is 15 amps. 12 gauge is 20 amps. 10 gauge is 30 amps. I hope you are not considering installing larger breakers because a circuit "should" carry more current.

End of lecture on things you did not ask about.

I wish you good luck and happy trails ahead!

[jacwjames]

The wire size does dictate the breaker size, as the previous posts points out. Contractors would probably try to save $$ by installing 15 amp breakers so they can use 14 awg wire.

15 amp outlets are designed to have 20 amp pass through capacity, another way contractors can save $$. If they took these kind of short cuts you wonder what is hidden behind he walls.



I just built my own house and did the wiring myself, I did not take any short cuts.

All 20 amp circuits, with 20 amp commercial plugs and switches. One dedicated circuit per room, sometimes 2 as per code and/or anticipated loads. Besides the required GFCI's in kitchen, laundry, garage, and basement I also installed a AFCI as the first outlet in each room. I also installed a safety disconnect to be able to isolate the power coming into the house completely. After inspector saw how I wired everything I passed the final inspection with flying colors.

[Jim18655]

It meets code but the code is a minimum standard. Pigtail the receptacle connections so that a loose screw or back-stab only affects that receptacle.

[happy2rv]

Even a dedicated outlet is supposed to be sized to 80% of expected load. In this case, you are probably pushing slightly past rated load for the 20A circuit. You would probably eventually trip the breaker, if you don't burn the house down first. So even if this was a dedicated 20A outlet, you shouldn't be drawing more than 16A on a continual basis or its overloaded. In this case, your limiting factor is the 15A outlet.


Another factor to consider is the length of the run. Not sure if/how the code addresses it, but licensed electricians get this wrong all the time. Our previous house had a 20A circuit that ran from the breaker box to a bathroom GFCI and then to every outside outlet on the 2800 square foot house. The last outlet was about 30 feet from the breaker box "as the crow flies, but the wire run had to be about 300 feet. You couldn't draw more than about 2 amps before voltage dropped to dangerously low levels and things started heating up. This was installed by a "professional" and passed inspection.


As persistent said, wire size is a limiting factor. You can have larger wire but not smaller. For instance, its acceptable to put 12 gauge on a 15A breaker, assuming the breaker and all devices are rated to accept that size. You can't put 14 gauge on a 20A breaker though. For unavoidable long runs, you should increase the wire size to compensate, but again insuring that all devices are rated to accept the larger size wire.



Running an air conditioner on a shared convenience circuit is iffy at best. If it happens to be the last outlet on a long string of outlets, as the OP indicated, it could be a recipe for disaster. The back stab outlets don't help, but I don't think replacing them is going to solve the OPs problem. I suspect that if you removed all outlets and replaced them with wire nuts, and replaced the final outlet with a 20A "dedicated" outlet, you would still have high heat. If the outlets are 200 degrees, the wire itself is even hotter.



Selection of extension cords and adapters to get to the outlet can also exacerbate the problem.

[Chargerman]

Personally I would not run off a 20 amp circuit unless I was out of the unit and just using the 20 amp plug for keeping the batteries charged. Running an A/C and a few light etc off what “might” be a 20 Amp circuit is looking for trouble and in your sons case maybe a house fire. I would have a 30 or 50Amp dedicated plug installed for when you visit to be safe and worry free.

[HopsBrewster]

If it were my MH and my son's house and planned on spending a lot of time camped there, I would ask if I could pay to have an electrician install a 30A or a 50A 120V circuit out near the MH.

[Waiter21]

Sounds like you nailed it.

I'd replace the outlet that was getting hot. make sure to use a heavy duty 20 amp outlet. When you do this, note the wire size, it should be at least #12 if its on a 20 amp circuit.

Also look at the plug on your cord for any signs of arcing, or overheating. If there are any signs, replace the plug also.

20 amps should handle the A/C and any minor loads, like a light. The frig should only be drawing 1 - 1.5 amps after the compressor starts.

I don't think I'd be running the waffle iron and the A/C at the same time. This is putting you on the edge of your 20 amp circuit.

[followingsea]

Originally Posted by Jim18655

It meets code but the code is a minimum standard. Pigtail the receptacle connections so that a loose screw or back-stab only affects that receptacle.

Good advice, that is how I will install the new outlet.

Thank you all for your comments.

All my 20 amp circuits have #12 awg wire. However, back stabs on the 15 amp outlet were for #14awg wire. This will get fixed.

This house had been foreclosed and was empty for two years. It was single story and had an unfinished mother-in-law addition. It had RV parking too.

It was our exit strategy for when I died and DW sold the MH.

The house needed a lot of work before a newborn child was sleeping there. I did get an estimate for a 50 amp RV outlet. Considering the arrangement it would be very expensive. I have installed a 50 amp on another property. It is 110 degrees F here today and I like to going to the PNW this time a year.

So why am I here? New grand baby arrives in 7 days. DW wife has passed. I have a grey wig and a flowered house dress. Call me Mrs Doubtfire! Other grandparents will come and I will lose the dress and will go sailing.

So 20 amps was good for the original plan.

[Gary RVRoamer]

Sound advice from happy2rv. Running the motorhome and its a/c off that 15A outlet is definitely an overload in hot weather. There will be a continuous draw at or very close to the full 15A peak capacity and a 15A outlet is only expected to handle 80% of that 15A peak for 30 minutes or more. Not at all surprising it was running hot.

[followingsea]

Originally Posted by jacwjames

...... After inspector saw how I wired everything I passed the final inspection with flying colors.

I got the clueless building inspector. When I built my dream log house in the mountains many years ago it was the last house I was going to live in so I bought building material accordingly. Only used #12 wire but put 15 amp breakers on lighting circuits.

Got red flagged for putting 15 amp breakers with #12 wire.

Everything I did in my dream house had been done other places but because they had not been done in that county I could not get a general contractor to build the house I wanted. For example a walkout basement with 10' ceilings.

I hate to be a cliche. Build a dream and have to sell it. BIL died, BIL died, FIL died, father died, and where I worked closed.

Dealing with loss is part of life. What took me a while to understand, is that when accomplishing a dream you lose that dream. I replaced it with the dream of sailing around the world or driving the MH to Alaska. What could go wrong?

[Tightwadted]

All good advice so far, couple people mentioned pigtailing outlets, ALL outlets in a chain should be pigtailed at every receptacle, the outlet should never be carrying the power to the next. I can't tell you how many outlets I have rewired in my handyman business that were done incorrectly. Case in point: every winter our church office would get a horrible smell in it. come to find out they were using an electric heater to supplement heat, and an outlet 3 outlets away was overheating because the power came in one side and went out the other.