Community Forums

RVPioneer · 04-10-2019, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by winniman

I know Im always talking about hydrogen, but I truly believe it is the one environmental option that is feasible. Electricity can be generated anywhere there is geo thermal, sun, wind, ocean, or hydro electric. Excess can be turned into hydrogen, which can be stored, and shipped all over the continent. They already have buses running on it in Toronto, and are proposing a train system. The end by product of burning hydrogen is water vapour. Electric cars would still by viable wherever electricity can be easily generated, and the climate is optimal for the use of them. I cant see a trucking company paying employees to sit at a charging station for hours, trying to recharge their electric truck. Many long haul trucks run two drivers, and run nonstop except for fuel stops.

Hydrogen is made primarily from steam regeneration of natural gas. This means a great deal of energy and fossil fuels. How feasible is that? I’d say it may be a net negative energy endeavor based on a $60K Mirai our friends own.

It costs $80 for enough hydrogen fuel to go 240 miles. Even at California prices of $4/gal that works out to 20 gallons, gas or diesel. I can go 160 miles in the coach or 600 miles in the diesel Jeep at 30mpg. The only reason they got the car was because of a $9000 rebate and $15K in fuel credits for 3 years. Depending on the pump pressure they may only be able to add enough to fill half the tank.

SlowJoe · 04-10-2019, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bahamaniac

People buy TVs to travel. Lots of us want to travel long distance to see landmarks, monuments, and Federal parks. Unfortunately the electric vehicle can NOT do the long distance travel that RV users desire.

This is the answer!

If someone is making short trips, then an electric vehicle makes sense, otherwise forget about it. Especially if you are hauling anything other than people. Maybe an electric truck will be developed which can haul loads across the country and also do it cheaper, more reliably and also survive in the harsh conditions a diesel can, but I am doubtful it will happen in my lifetime. Also, as mentioned above the infrastructure to recharge all of these trucks or passenger vehicles does not exist nor is even somewhat close to existing. The recharge rate is not close to reasonable either.

SLOweather · 04-10-2019, 04:55 PM

One thing that I didn't see mentioned here. It's a chicken and egg thing. Most RV parks can't today handle a park full of 50 amp connections running 2 ACs and everything else in hot weather. Then add in vehicle battery charging, water heating, 5 TVs, residential refrigerator, etc. I suppose it will take a massive infrastructure upgrade to (an as yet undesigned?) 100 or 200 amp minimum service connection.

OK, while I was typing this, I figured it out. Exchange batteries. The simple thing is a trailer full of batteries. Instead of recharging, you pull into a swap station and exchange battery trailers. The coach has enough battery for a few miles of driving, and to keep systems running. The swap station has a 'uuuuge electrical service and can charge trailers in an hour. Different sized trailers for different size vehicles, or longer boondocking stays.

Then there's the whole sub industry of delivering battery trailers to campsites, or maybe mobile (carbon powered) charging services.

Man, I should patent that...

Still, gonna be a long time before my wife and I go out for a week of dry camping in an all-electric 31' RV.

MRUSA14 · 04-10-2019, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SLOweather

OK, while I was typing this, I figured it out. Exchange batteries. The simple thing is a trailer full of batteries. Instead of recharging, you pull into a swap station and exchange battery trailers. The coach has enough battery for a few miles of driving, and to keep systems running. The swap station has a 'uuuuge electrical service and can charge trailers in an hour. Different sized trailers for different size vehicles, or longer boondocking stays.

Then there's the whole sub industry of delivering battery trailers to campsites....

“Then there's the whole sub industry of delivering battery trailers to campsites....”

Or to RVs broke down with dead batteries on the side of the road.

winniman · 04-10-2019, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RVPioneer

Hydrogen is made primarily from steam regeneration of natural gas. This means a great deal of energy and fossil fuels. How feasible is that? I’d say it may be a net negative energy endeavor based on a $60K Mirai our friends own.

It costs $80 for enough hydrogen fuel to go 240 miles. Even at California prices of $4/gal that works out to 20 gallons, gas or diesel. I can go 160 miles in the coach or 600 miles in the diesel Jeep at 30mpg. The only reason they got the car was because of a $9000 rebate and $15K in fuel credits for 3 years. Depending on the pump pressure they may only be able to add enough to fill half the tank.

It can be made strictly with electricity via electrolysis. Here is some info. The second link states that it would only cost between a dollar and two dollars for the equivalent to a gallon depending on electricity costs.
https://www.energy.gov/eere/fuelcell...n-electrolysis
Hydrogen Fuel Cost vs Gasoline

BTFT · 04-10-2019, 05:35 PM

It's amusing to read the comments from those of you who decry this change and bring up every conceivable reason it won't work. Perhaps you should read more carefully: prototypes of all our vehicles from Class 8 Trucks to motorhomes are out there being tested NOW. Battery technology is being driven at an astonishing rate with many small and large companies making huge strides in faster charging (like 15 minutes) and longer life more powerful batteries. It is all happening now.

The other thing that is amazing is the sheer amount of misinformation that is being regurgitated here about electric vehicles and just where the technology stands at this point. Some of you need to get out of the house more.

To the first point the arguments being thrown out here against the electric vehicle are virtually the same ones the CAR first encountered when it was introduced. It took exactly TEN YEARS for all of those to be put to rest...Then we had gas stations, many more thousand miles of roads, garages and places to eat and stay along the highways....all of that in ten years.

What I was hoping for was more thoughtful comments about how to change RV design both interior and exterior and new ideas about how to make them much more efficient. Maybe we'll get there.

In any case know this: Electric vehicles, automated vehicles and the end of the fossil fuel automobile in all its configurations ARE the future. The near future. It sounds to me as some of you will be left with the proverbial "buggy whip" still in your hands.

The oil companies already know this and some openly acknowledge it. (see Royal Dutch Shells recent Statements about it) THAT is all you need to know.

MRUSA14 · 04-10-2019, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BTFT

To the first point the arguments being thrown out here against the electric vehicle are virtually the same ones the CAR first encountered when it was introduced. It took exactly TEN YEARS for all of those to be put to rest...Then we had gas stations, many more thousand miles of roads, garages and places to eat and stay along the highways....all of that in ten years

Talk to me in ten years.

winniman · 04-10-2019, 05:43 PM

I have provided a very viable option to work in conjunction with electric vehicles. Hydrogen can be made and burned with zero emissions. It is far more feasible to picture an rv ran on hydrogen, then an electric one. They already have entire cities whos transit buses are ran on it. No pollution from the exhaust. What more can the world ask for. You can still have electric cars as long as you can find a way to power them without having to create more pollution with petro products or nuclear generators. You can even turn the hydrogen back into electricity.

Arch Hoagland · 04-10-2019, 05:47 PM

https://mashable.com/2018/04/17/elec.../#uEqENEjgomqK

Here you go...actual trucks charging from a strip in the road while they are moving, just like an electric train.

winniman · 04-10-2019, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arch Hoagland

https://mashable.com/2018/04/17/elec.../#uEqENEjgomqK

Here you go...actual trucks charging from a strip in the road while they are moving, just like an electric train.

Sweden produces 50 percent of its electricity by hydro electric generation, and 40 percent nuclear. There can be no electric vehicle solution as long as we have to rely on nuclear. The waste is not sustainable, and is as big an evil as carbon based fuels. Hydro is great, but only certain parts of the world has water flow to use. The strip in the road looks like it could have its share of issues. Trying to keep the vehicle in line in windy, or foggy, snowy etc., road conditions could be a challenge. Maybe autonomous vehicles would have a better go of it.

jcussen · 04-10-2019, 05:59 PM

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/e...ent-d_868.html
Will take a lot of battery storage to equal the energy output of 200 gals of diesel fuel.

rarebear.nm · 04-10-2019, 06:01 PM

This issue was beat to death in another recent thread over a few months. This will likely follow suite and that's good.

RV MHs are all built on some else's chassis. So until those suppliers provide a useable drive train the RV industry stays as it is. Simple.

People tend to downplay any new technology/direction based on today's /yesterday's technology. I believe the EV industry is about to enter the Model-T stage of development that the car industry faced a century ago. There were plenty and technology problems and support infrastructure to be built before ICE vehicles became common place. In WWII millions of horses were still used by all armies, including the US. It took many years before ICE replaced the horse and buggy era.

While lithium batteries are best known energy storage used in EVs today, the trend is clearly towards supercapacitor (ultracapictor) storage methods. Perhaps with lithium in a hybrid as in a few newer designs today. You can order these batteries from many places today, including Walmart. They excell lithium in nearly all areas except retaining change over an extended period of time. But that problem is being researched. As for charge time, they are very fast. Like full charge in well under 60 seconds. The new Atlis pickup truck being developed (Google for it) uses these hybrid "batteries". This truck is being designed as a 1 ton work truck intended for towing heavy loads, etc. Oh- the life cycle of supercapacitor batteries is like 100,000 to 1,000,000 full recharge cycles or about 15 to 20 years. This is a game changer.

For loss of gas tax on EVs, I expect the solution will include a "milage" charge added to the cost of a recharge operation. Many ways to impose this.

I think Winnebago's early entry into the EV arena will be limited to urban based vehicles like mobile blood donation stations, mobile libraries, food trucks, etc all with limited daily milage and within a power outlet. The current stuff I read is that have about a 100 mile range. Not useful as an RV. But Winnebago will gain valuable data about EV based RVs when the range gets to where its needed.

Before EVs make a serious inroad our electric infrastructure will require some changes as will laws and regulations, etc. This will all require some time to figure out and for the public to accept. I would expect the early changes be appear in the urban areas first with the more rural areas sometime later. There will probably always be parts of the car/truck industry that will remain based on ICE designs for many reasons.

True that many new ideas never saw success (say Beta video tapes). Most current technologies we enjoy today had their naysayers early in the product development cycle (smart phones, tablets, trains, cars, planes, electric power, etc). They all had acceptance issues and some had serious infrastructure build out requirements as well.

I do not have an EV and don't really expect to won one, unless the Atlis truck looks good enough at some point. I don't judge new ideas based on yesterday's solutions, because the future will be built on tomorrow's solutions and those who lead the change process. IMO

Arch Hoagland · 04-10-2019, 06:05 PM

China has 500 EV start-ups. The country can produce 20 million EVs a year.

https://insideevs.com/china-too-many-electric-cars/

Going to be real interesting to see what happens. I don't know how much attention you pay to China but they might just be leading us in the years to come.

**Spdracr39** · 04-10-2019, 06:06 PM

The tax credit cut in half January 1, 2019. It will be a while before they can make a battery rv that will haul 40-50,000 lbs 1000 miles for less than a million dollars. I'm sticking with diesel. Not to mention there are very few charge outlets on BLM land.