Low Sulphur Diesel Fuel Question

[rebelsbeach]

Posting this for ajbjrvers...admin move not working right...

ajbjrvers
"Newmar Owner's Forum Member"
Picture of ajbjrvers

Posted September 23, 2006 09:10 PM
To; AII DIESEL PUSHER OWNERS,

I didn't know the appropriate place to put this info so I'm posting it here hoping an administrator?? will put it in proper place.

I had a phone conversation with a customer service rep at Cummins yesterday re; the new low sulphur fuel that will be in the pumps by mid October with only 15 ppm sulphur, the current fuel has 500 ppm sulphur. The new fuel CAN be used in pre 2007 engines without harm. The current fuel CANNOT be used in the 07 engines.

The qquestion I now have is; If the 500 ppm fuel has caused polution problems over the years and our engines could have preformed well on 15ppm, " Why did they not make the 15ppm fuel long ago???

Don't know if the 15 is going to cost more, but no choices.

==== AIME==== AJBJRVERS=== Program


2002 Newmar Mountain Aire Diesel Pusher, floor plan #4097, 400 hp. Cummins ISL, Allison 3060 6 speed tranny.,200 amp. alternator on engine.
Equipped for serious boondocking; 3,000 watt Pro-sine inverter/charger, 3 ,120 watt solar panels, 8 Interstate U2500 high capacity batteries with 1,100 amp. hours reserve. I have front A/C and Heat pump and refrige connected thru inverter to use when driving and when parked.. Chassis; Spartan Mountain Master GT
Newmar Kountry Klub # 10693, FMCA # 167759, Good Sam # 031491061, PassportAmerica # C-197532 === 2006 Pontiac G6 Sedan, Blue Ox tow set-up and Aventa II tow bar..... Brake Buddy.

[rebelsbeach]

Posting this for ajbjrvers...admin move not working right...

ajbjrvers
"Newmar Owner's Forum Member"
Picture of ajbjrvers

Posted September 23, 2006 09:10 PM
To; AII DIESEL PUSHER OWNERS,

I didn't know the appropriate place to put this info so I'm posting it here hoping an administrator?? will put it in proper place.

I had a phone conversation with a customer service rep at Cummins yesterday re; the new low sulphur fuel that will be in the pumps by mid October with only 15 ppm sulphur, the current fuel has 500 ppm sulphur. The new fuel CAN be used in pre 2007 engines without harm. The current fuel CANNOT be used in the 07 engines.

The qquestion I now have is; If the 500 ppm fuel has caused polution problems over the years and our engines could have preformed well on 15ppm, " Why did they not make the 15ppm fuel long ago???

Don't know if the 15 is going to cost more, but no choices.

==== AIME==== AJBJRVERS=== Program


2002 Newmar Mountain Aire Diesel Pusher, floor plan #4097, 400 hp. Cummins ISL, Allison 3060 6 speed tranny.,200 amp. alternator on engine.
Equipped for serious boondocking; 3,000 watt Pro-sine inverter/charger, 3 ,120 watt solar panels, 8 Interstate U2500 high capacity batteries with 1,100 amp. hours reserve. I have front A/C and Heat pump and refrige connected thru inverter to use when driving and when parked.. Chassis; Spartan Mountain Master GT
Newmar Kountry Klub # 10693, FMCA # 167759, Good Sam # 031491061, PassportAmerica # C-197532 === 2006 Pontiac G6 Sedan, Blue Ox tow set-up and Aventa II tow bar..... Brake Buddy.

[RustyJC]

The 15 ppm (ULSD) is required to reduce particulates in order to keep from fouling and plugging the particulate traps that will be pretty much universal on the engines built after 1/1/07. Additional refining is required to bring sulfur down to 15 ppm versus the 500 ppm of the LSD we've been using. Unfortunately, this additional refining also removes more aromatics that provide lubricity to fuel system components. ASTM (American Society for Testing and Materials) has developed a lubricity standard for the ULSD, and the refiners are supposed to be incorporating additives to bring lubricity up to the ASTM standard. Will there be lubrication-related fuel system problems? Time will ultimately tell. Some diesel owners are taking a proactive approach by adding a quart of ashless 2-cycle engine oil at every fillup.

Rusty

[RV Wizard]

Rusty, do you know the ratio mixture of the ashless 2-cycle engine oil to diesel? How many gallons is a quart good for? My 150 gallon tank may need more than the diesel pickup trucks.

[RustyJC]

Cummins allows up to 5% engine oil - they market a system for their Class 8 applications that drains off a bit of engine oil and mixes it with the fuel. The make-up oil added to the engine sweetens the additive package and extends drain intervals.

Most of the people I've heard using the ashless 2-cycle oil in the Dodge/Cummins are using 1 quart per fill-up. At, let's say, 30 gallons of diesel per fill-up, that would be 1 quart per 30 x 4 = 120 quarts, or slightly less than a 1% ratio of ashless 2-cycle oil to diesel fuel.

Rusty

[RV Wizard]

Thanks Rusty.

[Jestme13]

sounds to me like it could get expensive after awhile, with a 100 gallon diesel tank and 8mpg.

[RustyJC]

Perhaps, but cheaper than injection pumps for us users whose pumps are fuel-lubricated. Most of those who are using ashless 2-cycle oil are using Wal-Mart's off-the-shelf brand since it should be fine for this purpose. It's not necessary to use high-dollar 2 stroke motorcycle racing oil.

Again, time will tell if there are any lubricity-related problems with ULSD or not. The people who are adding ashless 2-cycle oil just consider it good insurance until we all gain some experience with ULSD.

Rusty

[Jestme13]

I wonder how the manufacturers warrenty will view pump failures due to low sulphur fuels ???

[Hitchhiker]

If the pump failed, how could it be determined if the LSD caused it or if it failed due to defective material or workmanship?

[Jestme13]

Good question drum roll please

[RustyJC]

Richard,

Two potential problems they'll be looking for:

1. Leaks - the reduction in aromatic constituents may result in seal/gasket drying, hardening and/or shrinkage. Cummins has a bulletin out to its service centers warning that some transfer (lift) pumps may start showing leakage when run with ULSD due to gasket material incompatability.

2. Lubricity-related problems - these will likely show up as abnormal wear, galling, etc. If the material properties are to spec (i.e., hardness, surface finish, etc.), then the manufacturers are probably going to blame the fuel.

The fact is, however, that ULSD is apparently here to stay, so the fuel injection system manufacturers are going to have to design their components to live with it. This probably won't be as much of a problem with the newer equipment that was designed for ULSD as it will for the older stuff out in the marketplace.

Rusty

[Gary RVRoamer]

You can bet the ULSD will cost more - estimates are 5-15 cents/gallon. The refineries are already crying and saying they can't produce enough of both grades of fuel. The only station I have seen that already carried ULSD had it priced 15 cents higher than regular diesel, though I expect that will come down a bit as competition heats up.

Few stations will offer both, simply because they don't have tanks and pumps for multiple grades of diesel. It will be "one size fits all", which means in the short term ULSD may be hard to find and in the long term all diesel users will be buying ULSD, whether their engine needs it or not. Pretty much the same scenario as when unleaded regular gas was mandated, for those old enough to remember that.

[Ray,IN]

This answers most any questions. S15(ULSD)