National Parks In Trouble

[Isaac-1]

Thanks for that post, though as you say sometimes it gets to that critical level where it can't help but be noticed. I visited Petrified Forest National Park last month, and it is one of those places that I think has reached that point, while I wanted to see the entire length of the park, I ended up turning around and leaving because the road was in such bad shape, knowing every mile I drove in on it, was another mile I would have to drive back over the same awful pavement to leave, made me end up missing the majority of the park.

[Kenaleslie]

Up the fee to $100.00 per day. Everyone
Wants everything for free. Someone has to pay There is nothing free

[photraveller]

Originally Posted by WyCamper

From https://www.nps.gov/dena/planyourvisit/fees.htm



Sounds like you still owe an entrance fee. I'm sure they'll accept your check along with a letter explaining why you neglected to pay while you were visiting.

Thanks, I was unaware about that. I will say we were all over the visitor center and never saw an sign. We did see more than one donate bin for various things and always made our contribution trying to make up for what I saw as a serious mistake by NPS.

One final note, I was at the bridge one evening during magic hour discussing the no fees with a couple different groups of people and we were all in the same boat. None of us knew about the self pay. One of the people actually struck up a conversation with a park ranger there in the parking lot, regarding entrance fees. He just kind of shook his head, shrugged his shoulders and said something to the effect that is what we have been saying for years. So he had the perfect opportunity to correct us, but didn't!

Steve

[photraveller]

Originally Posted by twogypsies

Denali most certainly has an entrance fee!

Well as I posted a reply to the first person who corrected me, they sure go out of their way to hide that. I looked, I was in the visitor center more than once and didn't see the signs. Other people I talked to in cars, didn't know either. So how much money are they missing out on every year?

Steve

[cavie]

Originally Posted by NLOVNIT

CAUTION!

Tread very carefully here folks. We will not tolerate any political oriented commentary.

Lori-

Thank you, Thank you ,Thank you.

[Busskipper]

Seems like the National Parks have a problem.

They are being Loved to Death.

- - - -

[DRM901]

ASTRNMRTOM, great post. Thanks.

As kids, we were taught to leave the camp site cleaner than it was when we arrived. Fifty-sixty years later, my whole family, and now nieces & nephews, will grab the stray water bottle, candy wrapper, etc when hiking or camping. That won't solve the backlog of maintenance issues, but it would instill pride in offer parks and allow more funds to be used for other activites than cleaning. The broken window theory has worked.

I challenge EVERYONE on this forum to practice what we were taught a long, long time ago. It's good exercise and I guarantee you will have greater pride in our parks.

[Earl II]

I have not seen an original post that is in the area of opinion on how any of our governmental functions should be run that hasn't spun off with just more opinions. Personally, I would like to see opinions on this forum kept to the subject of recreational vehicles. Just my opinion. I could give my thoughts on how to help the national parks but it would just be an opinion that would be considered political as they say and upset at least half of the readers.

[Bobby F]

Entrance fees for public facilities are problematic.

If "we the people" have already bought, built, and maintained a facility, and if profit isn't a proper consideration, fees are improper.

Bumping up fees merely reserves the facility for the use of those people who have enough money to pay the fees. If you want to go down that route, why not reserve voting rights for property owners?

If something truly is a public asset, and if we need to reduce the use of that asset, lottery admission is far more fair.

[Busskipper]

Originally Posted by Bobby F

Entrance fees for public facilities are problematic.

If "we the people" have already bought, built, and maintained a facility, and if profit isn't a proper consideration, fees are improper.

Bumping up fees merely reserves the facility for the use of those people who have enough money to pay the fees. If you want to go down that route, why not reserve voting rights for property owners?

If something truly is a public asset, and if we need to reduce the use of that asset, lottery admission is far more fair.

Tend to agree that increasing Fee's is just not Right. -

So are we headed to a Lottery - similar to the ones used to take hikes on the crowded trails in the Popular National Parks? -

Will you be able to Barter the Trips you have won - Would the Lottery Winner have to Pay if they do not use the trip? -

Nothing is simple, it certainly is not a One Size fits all solution - IMHO if what is out there today Changes many will not be Happy, a solution will definitely require some changes, thus many unhappy Campers. -

Loved to Death. -

[BTFT]

Originally Posted by photraveller

Well as I posted a reply to the first person who corrected me, they sure go out of their way to hide that. I looked, I was in the visitor center more than once and didn't see the signs. Other people I talked to in cars, didn't know either. So how much money are they missing out on every year?

Steve

While I appreciate your willingness to correct yourself I do have to point out that I have been to Denali many times. (I worked for Holland America/Princess in Fairbanks and was there every day practically and I have camped there quite a few times.


This much I can tell you the signs directing visitors to the office where you buy the entrance fee and other fees are large, on the roads into the visitor center and frankly hard to miss.
(Perhaps you were dazzled by the scenery)



Also just to back up what some have alluded to already. Anyone who comes to Denali on a Tour, whether that be with their cruise line or through a local concessionaire all pay their entrance fees included in their tour cost.


But if you understand how Denali works you would know that no one can drive a personal vehicle into the park beyond the visitor center area and the campgrounds close to it. You MUST pay for a tour or a shuttle bus to get into the park at large. Getting to the visitor center is easy and parking is free. But that's as far as you can go. Beyond that you must pay.


(There is a campground about mile 32 on the park road (Teklanika) that you can drive to but you must have a specific permit and a reservation. Once there you cannot move your vehicle beyond the campground for the duration of your stay.)



And as I recall there are signs in the visitor center and information on paying.


And actually on the contrary Denali is one of the better run Parks and does quite well infrastructure wise as well as income wise.

[TeJay]

I realize comparing theme parks to the NPS may not be a fair comparison. I believe they are allowing and subjecting themselves to what is happening in many aspect of our lives.

Were the NP's not designed to preserve the natural beauty for all to see?? What happened to enjoying nature for its natural untouched beauty?? I sure as heck don't need to experience a visual reality of what a squirrel has to go through to live and eat. I can't think of any good valid reason for anybody even wanting to do that.

You might say well a small kid can see what squirrels have to do to survive. What ever happened to children's imagination? Do we have to do all their thinking for them?? Can't we just leave it up to their imagination?

The NPS service is falling into the same rut as everybody else designed to excite and WOW!! the visitors.

Disney and all the other theme parks are trying to built the biggest, greatest, longest, highest newest etc, etc so todays kids will be wowed into oblivion. They are not happy looking at trees, beautiful lakes, vistas or other natural wonders of our NPS. Most of the time their noses are in their phones anyway.

How can humans improve things like the Grand Canyon? Who wasn't overcome with wonder at our first visit to the GC?? How can one get tired of looking at its beauty?? Do we need to make it deeper, wider, longer or paint the walls with more vibrant colors? It is what it is which is a natural wonder of the world.

We have no plans or desire to set foot in another theme park. The last time we were in one we didn't even speak the language anyway. I'm surprised our American currency is still good and doesn't have to be converted.

We spent 6 weeks near Acadia National Park this past summer. We actually honeymooned in the same area 50 years ago. We were camped about an hour away. My DW grew up in the state and she and I had visited the coast many, many times. In late September we did a day trip up Cadillac mountain but were overwhelmed by all the visitors. It was to the point that we decided to get out ASAP. Who can wait to 2 hours to eat lunch at the Jorden Pond House?? That was if we could find a parking space which we couldn't.

According to the locals it's that way almost every day until they close I believe at the end of October. The top of Cadillac mountain was crawling with visitors and tour buses. Not a fun day trip for sure.

[RVThere]

Originally Posted by Agesilaus

Secondly, they parks are Not Underfunded they are poorly managed. One minor example is that they authorize just about any ranger to complete law enforcement training and thus get a big bump up in pay. They of course only need a limited number of cop rangers. Very few of the NP are hotbeds of crime. But that money comes out of their budgets.

Please tell me where you got this info from?

From having a son who is in the midst of the NPS law enforcement program, it goes like this:
1. Apply for and attend the six or so Seasonal NPS Law Enforcement academies. These are run by colleges and cost about $5,000 which is paid for by the students (or their parents...). It takes about 4 months to complete with NO guarantee of NPS employment upon graduation.
2. The student applies for seasonal positions through USAjobs.gov and hopefully gets hired to a job that is limited to 1039 hours per year (about 6 months if you're lucky). At the end of the season, they are terminated and have to find work to fill in the off-season.
3. They have to apply for a seasonal job again and are not eligible for permanent hire until they have 24 months of seasonal service (which takes about 4-5 years!)
4. If they are hired for a permanent position, they are sent to Brunswick, GA for FLETC. FLETC is backlogged so permanents are often waiting for a year to attend.

Speaking to my son, he said it's extremely rare for an 'Interp' to move over to become a LE ranger. As for the 'big bump in pay', he makes about $21 an hour vs. $18 for an interpretive ranger. For that $3, he is always on call, patrols vast swaths of our parks with NO backup, has dealt with a number of fatalities, domestic violence, drugs, reckless drivers, dangerous animals, idiotic tourists, etc. By and large interpretive rangers like their calm nature walks and educational tours and don't care to get involved in the dirty work of law enforcement.

If you know of a shortcut through this process, please let us know!

[Funengineer]

Originally Posted by astrnmrtom

As someone who just retired from 35 years in taxpayer funded, public institution, facility maintenance, I can offer an insider's perspective of sorts. Of course I'll preface with the fact that this is my opinion and reflects my personal view of the subject. It's an apolitical viewpoint because it's more about human nature than anything so hopefully my post doesn't violate the rules.



Maintaining existing programs and facilities is almost always the lowest priority. It's costly, boring, has no glamour factor, does nothing for generating excitement, interest, or support, and no program administrator or representative would ever think of putting "I took good care of buildings and roads." on their resume as they travel through their careers.



Public institutions have to "sell themselves" to the public and the people who hold the purse strings. The better the sales pitch, the better the odds you'll get funds. I have a saying I used over and over during my career for what was the driving factor program decisions or allocating funds. It had to be something that: "Sounds great on a brochure." I found those in charge were always pitching some new great idea, and if it was even mentioned that the funds would be better spent re-paving a parking lot, installing a new roof, or replacing rotting plumbing, you'd get blank stares and silence. At best you'd get a: "That's true but . . . ." What makes it worse is; over time is it becomes a vicious circle. By letting basic maintenance go, the damage gets worse and the repair more expensive. The harder it is to fund and the can keeps getting kicked down the road.



Another thing that feeds the monster is maintenance is invisible and often the deterioration is too, until it reaches a crisis level. I can't tell you the number of times we were told to slap a coat of paint on wood so rotten you could poke your finger through it while someone pitched some exciting new program. One building had roof leaks that were so old, that when you went to replace the stained drop ceiling tile for the umpteenth time you could look up and see wood mushrooms growing out of the roof decking. Replacing rotten wood? Boring. Pitching cool new expensive wow technology? Exciting!



I'll give a fictitious National Park example that is a variation on what I have experienced first hand: A facility condition evaluation is done, and needs are prioritized on a 1-5 scale. 1 being minor problem, and 5 being near critical failure. It's discovered that in order to address items that are critical or near critical, 4s and 5s, it going to cost $15,000,000. At the same time there's a proposal for a new Theodore Roosevelt Jr., Brown Squirrel Habitat Exhibit Building, with a projected cost of $25,000,000. The pitch for the new building goes: "Visitors can, through the wonders of virtual reality, see what it's like to climb trees to gather nuts for the winter, run through the underground burrow and evade predators!" Stack that up against the need for new roofs, repairing cracking foundations, upgrading failing plumbing, and upgrading electrical service to 70 year old buildings. What will you get for your $15,000,000 repair and upgrades? Nothing noticeable to any visitor, and a building that is still 70 years old. The new Exhibit building? Yep, you guessed it. A new, cool, and exciting educational exhibit. Which one would be on the cover of a brochure, on the home page of the Park's website, or sound good on a resume? The sad thing is: That brand new building's life-clock will start ticking the minute the grand opening ribbon is cut, because it too will suffer the same lack of maintenance as the rest. I've seen it first hand, with 3 new facilities built in the last 20 years. The day they opened, was the day they started to rot. In fact for over 10 years the new philosophy on how facilities are viewed in my institution is they have a projected lifetime or 30-40 years, at which time they should be replaced with new. No, I'm not making it up. It was an almost word for word quote from the person who controlled the money. I even heard the newest building as advertised to the public as: "A Maintenance Free Building!" Yes, another almost verbatim quote.



We had buildings with buckets in the hallways for years every winter, and we were sent up on the roof countless times with a can of tar roof patch and a stick to spread it with. There were areas on our roofs where we knew where not to step because the structure was rotten but the proper repair was "just too expensive." The only time this changed is when the public got angry enough to ask why the facilities aren't being taken care of. Even then it resulted in just enough repairs to put the angry citizens back to sleep, and the cycle began again - the anger would be placated with "a patch, some paint and beauty bark."



There were times when pressure from the public became strong enough, we'd spend 100s of hours doing facility condition evaluations and repair cost estimates. Binders of information would be sent to the head office. The result? Crickets. . . and when asked, we were told repairs were too expensive and for us to pick the "worst 3" and hope there was enough money. Again the solution would be just enough to stop the current complaints. A few years would go by and we'd be asked for another report and one time $30,000 was spend with a consulting firm to do the same. Can you guess what happened? Bet you can. I've been retired from the place for three years and I recently had a conversation with an ex-coworker. Guess what? They've been asked to to a facility condition evaluation again. The fourth in 20 years.



In the next year construction is to begin on a new $100,000,000 facility. In the approved budget is money to address some issues with some older buildings. Just last week an employee at one of those older facilities told me he was told the improvements for his building "may" be coming "IF" there's money left over. He was told "Don't get your hopes up."



That's only talking about repairs and maintenance. Keeping facilities clean? That's another battle of the budgets. There's no glamour in keeping toilets clean. In our newest building the janitorial crew was 1/3 smaller than other buildings of the same size and use to cut costs. This is the building advertised as maintenance free above. Due to the smaller staff, the restrooms were cleaned during operating hours and the last restrooms on the run would get cleaned mid-day. This meant trash, urine and sometimes feces would remain on the floors until mid day. I was asked to evaluate the janitorial schedules and write a report because our maintenance director was going to ask for the money to add a half time janitor. Can you guess what he was told? Now this is a public building which SHOULD be clean and ready for use when it opens it's doors in the morning. Why doesn't the public complain? Because the public restrooms in the foyer were first on the schedule. The other 9 restrooms were deeper in the building.



There were times I used to say to people who knew what we were dealing with, that this is one institution in one small town, and for them to imagine multiplying this tens of thousands of times across the US. I'd be willing to bet dollars to donuts this is no different in the national parks and other public institutions.



My final bucket of cold water to dump on the subject is: 99% of the public just never really notices facility deterioration until its really, really, bad, so that pressure from the taxpayer rarely hits an action level. People show up to a facility, use it, and leave, and as long as their visit goes well, they never think beyond that. This is viewed by people in charge as a happy taxpayers and proof that all is well. To those in charge of the funds, record attendance at the parks is a sign all is well. That the people pointing out the deteriorating buildings are all a bunch of Chicken Littles.



I'll leave you with one soul searching question. It's one that struck me a couple years before I retired and it really made me stop and think. Take what I said in the previous paragraph and ask yourself - If a public facility is enjoying record high utilization, almost no one is complaining despite deteriorating facilities and poor maintenance, are those in charge wrong for continuing to neglect the facilities in order to save costs and use the money on other more exciting things? Aren't they giving the public what it wants and pays for? Think the huge crowds that trample the delicate flora of Yellowstone, or stick their kids on the back of a wild Bison for a "great Facebook photo care if the asphalt is crumbling, the plumbing in the visitor's center is 70 years old and failing, or the lodge's roof leaks in the off season when it rains? Think even one in ten thousand visitors know the plant at the edge of the parking lot is an invasive species? That 30 years ago there were twice as many pine trees in the park as today? Nope. They come, they enjoy, and they go home. Only the very few who think deeper or those who work at the facilities know all the things what are going wrong.



Believe me when I say its easy to point fingers but the issue is very complex and the problem is a fabric woven from many fibers as is any problem in modern society. I grew up as a kid loving the national parks and I'm sad to see what's happening but I have little hope that anything will change.

I couldn’t have said it better. I too spent my 40 year career maintaining and operating public recreational facilities ranging from indoor recreation centers to outdoor natural areas, campgrounds and marinas. I have a deep appreciation for our national, state and local park facilities and support them every way I can. We can all help if we take a minute to consider how our actions and use affects them.

I’m sure most of you appreciate the public facilities that astrnmrtom, national, state, local employees and I spent our working lifetime to build and maintain for your enjoyment. We need to encourage others and remember to; First pay our fair share and when an opportunity arises to contribute to a special activity or facility drop a few bucks in the donation canister. Police our campsite and area around it by picking up any litter or trash you find. I do this as soon as I set up camp no matter where I go. Same as when you’re on that hike or bike ride. Pack your trash out. Pickup that piece of paper towel or tissue paper left in the bathroom. Wipe the sink or counter down when you’re done. Report any maintenance you think needs to be addressed. Be respectful of facilities and the natural environment and follow posted rules.

We can all help to be the solution and not the problem.