New ICE technology that will undo the BEV

[radar]

Originally Posted by TheCatsRV

In the medium to long term, it may be hydrogen that is the fuel storage technology of choice. Excess renewable (solar, wind) can be used to make hydrogen which can be stored, and used for power generation when required, and we could have hydrogen fuel cell RVs.

I don’t know much about this kind of stuff but from some of what I read it seems a good possibility that heavy transport would be well suited to hydrogen. But power is easy to make on your house or garage roof and from there easy to charge your car. It’s not even expensive anymore. Especially for those who charge at home or the workplace during the day. Obviously not right for everybody but a great solution for many.

There is an entire generation of people that will get used to fueling at home...for cheap. It will be hard for people to give up that independence of any external fuel or hydrogen company...and I’m sure oil companies are not going to deliver gas or hydrogen to your house for competitive prices to electricity..especially if you are making it yourself.

Just sayin.

[Kid Gloves]

Originally Posted by inkahauts

I can see something like this having a place in the future, I do not see it being better or more prevalent than just strait battery powered cars. But in say a rv, sure.... it could be a less expensive way to go a lot further... or maybe even the technology could head to locomotives and giant ships.these of that nature.

A couple of European manufacturers have developed, or are developing, Class B motorhomes that have plug in hybrid technology. What I find appealing, is the ability to arrive at and depart, RV resorts, campgrounds and neighborhoods, silently on electric power. Class A DP’s would add some complexity, with air suspension and air brakes, where applicable, and engine driven hydraulic cooling fans and power steering boosters, etc. Certainly, those obstacles could be overcome. A 40kWh battery, for example, could provide 20-30 miles of range and a substantial source of energy for extended boondocking. The ability to charge the battery while driving from an engine driven generator or alternator, solar panels or shore power would add to the appeal.

[TheCatsRV]

Originally Posted by radar

I don’t know much about this kind of stuff but from some of what I read it seems a good possibility that heavy transport would be well suited to hydrogen. But power is easy to make on your house or garage roof and from there easy to charge your car.

You're making the assumption that people are home when there's sunshine. Most people who work aren't. Maybe if office and work place car parks are covered in solar panels and employees can plug in.

It’s not even expensive anymore. Especially for those who charge at home or the workplace during the day. Obviously not right for everybody but a great solution for many.

I haven't calculated how much power is needed to travel how far but let's assume 10KWh is required for a OW commute. I believe solar panels potentially generate 300Wh so a maximum of 2,400 KWh in an 8 hr day. So 4 panel, assuming the sun is shining and the panels are oriented for 100%, and day lengths are sufficiently long.

There is an entire generation of people that will get used to fueling at home...for cheap.

It will take quite some time for fast chargers (L2 or L3) to be installed and available. Not cheap for a home (depends on electrician labour rates where you are) but more likely than an apartment of multiple family unit (e.g., apartment, condo).



[quote

It will be hard for people to give up that independence of any external fuel or hydrogen company...and I’m sure oil companies are not going to deliver gas or hydrogen to your house for competitive prices to electricity..especially if you are making it yourself.
[/QUOTE]


Other trouble is storage of excess generated (home generated) power. If you're closer to the polar extremes and live in some place with poor seasonal ensoliellement (amount of sunshine), solar is very lmited. Where I am (average of 2 hrs/day of sunshine in the 3 winter months), the estimate is that a house requires the equivalent of ~138 batteries from dead Teslas for solar power self-sufficiency. Maybe community hydrogen generators powered by excess power, with fuel cell power when demand is greater than generation.



I like the hydrogen fuel cell idea for RVs. As you say, if it works for trucks, it'll work for RVs. Quick refills, lighter weight (no lugging around huge numbers of heavy batteries) and the fuel cell provides the source of energy for propulsion and house power when extended boondocking. It's like a (hopefully very efficient) engine and generator in one package.

[skyking421]

TheCatsRV mentioned:
"I haven't calculated how much power is needed to travel how far but let's assume 10KWh is required for a OW commute. I believe solar panels potentially generate 300Wh so a maximum of 2,400 KWh in an 8 hr day. So 4 panel, assuming the sun is shining and the panels are oriented for 100%, and day lengths are sufficiently long."


Your calculation jumped from Wh to KWh. I believe the "2,400KWh should be 2,400Wh or 2.4KWh. (300W x 8hrs = 2400Wh)

[radar]

Originally Posted by skyking421

TheCatsRV mentioned:
"I haven't calculated how much power is needed to travel how far but let's assume 10KWh is required for a OW commute. I believe solar panels potentially generate 300Wh so a maximum of 2,400 KWh in an 8 hr day. So 4 panel, assuming the sun is shining and the panels are oriented for 100%, and day lengths are sufficiently long."


Your calculation jumped from Wh to KWh. I believe the "2,400KWh should be 2,400Wh or 2.4KWh. (300W x 8hrs = 2400Wh)

Here are some real world numbers from our personal experience. Our lifetime numbers on our leaf when we sold it was 6.4 km per kWh. A typical North American commute is 30 to 50 kilometres. So typical power usage is 6 to 8 kWh per day. My commute was on the lower side of that before COVID.

The majority of EV drivers (about 55 percent in this province) don’t bother with an L2 charge station and just use a standard 120 receptacle. As long as your commute isn’t over 80 or 90 kilometres an L1 is fine. We charged on L1 for the first few years. Our upgrade to L2 cost 350 bucks plus the cost of the wire, stove plug etc. Maybe 400 or 425 bucks.

L3 is not done in houses. No need for it. There are lots of L3 charging facilities for travellers in this area.

[skyking421]

Originally Posted by skyking421

TheCatsRV mentioned:
"I haven't calculated how much power is needed to travel how far but let's assume 10KWh is required for a OW commute. I believe solar panels potentially generate 300Wh so a maximum of 2,400 KWh in an 8 hr day. So 4 panel, assuming the sun is shining and the panels are oriented for 100%, and day lengths are sufficiently long."

Your calculation jumped from Wh to KWh. I believe the "2,400KWh should be 2,400Wh or 2.4KWh. (300W x 8hrs = 2400Wh)

The point I was making, is that the solar panel charge will not get you very far. Plus, you can't solar charge it while you're driving it during the day and it will not solar charge at night (without expensive storage batteries).



If we can assume about 50% efficiency from the solar cells, due to positioning, sun movement, clouds, etc., then you can expect 1.2KWh charge. That would drive you 7.7 KM. What we need is a "Mr. Fusion".


It does sound like your Honda Clarity is a great vehicle.

[Diesel-Lover]

Solar generation at home:
StateAverage system size Avg. daily power generation*Annual power generation California 7.33 kW 31 kWh 11,326 kWh

Texas 10.32 kW 42.3 kWh 15,441 kWh

Florida 10.75 kW 43.6 kWh 15,939 kWh
Roof size
California 7.33 kW 21 392 sq ft

Texas 10.32 kW 30 558 sq ft

Florida 10.75 kW 31 577 sq ft
Battery backup Can be used to save energy instead of loosing it to the grid for a pittance! The same can then transfer charge to the vehicle daily or be used by the home. Charging can be done at low utility rates in the wee hours via charge timing if house has smart meter.

Some utilities have free nights or free weekends etc programs so then solar is not crucial plus one can opt for green energy option from the utility.

[Kid Gloves]

Originally Posted by skyking421

The point I was making, is that the solar panel charge will not get you very far. Plus, you can't solar charge it while you're driving it during the day and it will not solar charge at night (without expensive storage batteries).



If we can assume about 50% efficiency from the solar cells, due to positioning, sun movement, clouds, etc., then you can expect 1.2KWh charge. That would drive you 7.7 KM. What we need is a "Mr. Fusion".


It does sound like your Honda Clarity is a great vehicle.

I’d say most people wouldn’t even bother with solar panels if they weren’t going to install at least a 3-5kW array. Even 3000 watts, which would generate 2500-2800 watts at peak hours, would make a total of 15-20kwhs of electricity each day for roughly six months a year.

There may be some misconceptions about “efficiency” when people hear figures such as 20% efficient. The panels are ~20% efficient at converting the suns energy into electricity, but a 300 watt panel, for instance, will produce very close to 300 watts during mid-day, full sun exposure.

Yes, our Clarity is a great vehicle for us and I believe the technology would suit the needs of many.

[Kid Gloves]

Originally Posted by Diesel-Lover

Battery backup Can be used to save energy instead of loosing it to the grid for a pittance! The same can then transfer charge to the vehicle daily or be used by the home. Charging can be done at low utility rates in the wee hours via charge timing if house has smart meter.

Some utilities have free nights or free weekends etc programs so then solar is not crucial plus one can opt for green energy option from the utility.

What do you consider a “pittance”? Lithium batteries for solar storage start at about $500/kWh and go up well above $1,000/kWh. A 13.5kWh Tesla Powerwall is now $7500, plus a $1000 Gateway and a $3500 installation cost. Total $12.000. Even our ~12kWh storage, in the form of lead acid batteries, cost around $3000. It’s purpose is a backup power source, not a source for charging an EV.

A low cost option would be to subscribe to a net metering plan where all excess solar generation is credited to future bills. We typically have no electricity bill for June -Sept and enough credit to offset some of October.

[Diesel-Lover]

Charging can be done at low utility rates in the wee hours via charge timing if house has smart meter.

Some utilities have free nights or free weekends etc programs so then solar is not crucial plus one can opt for green energy option from the utility.


Above written into the post with pittance near the end


Pittance = cost paid by the utility for your electrons vs costs they charge you for their electrons that difference is being whittled down to a pittance in most areas. You can google the skirmishes going on all across the land between electric companies and private solar roof folks. Most utilities are doing away with net metering as quickly as possible by claiming various costs and safety etc etc.

[jcussen]

Originally Posted by Kid Gloves

What do you consider a “pittance”? Lithium batteries for solar storage start at about $500/kWh and go up well above $1,000/kWh. A 13.5kWh Tesla Powerwall is now $7500, plus a $1000 Gateway and a $3500 installation cost. Total $12.000. Even our ~12kWh storage, in the form of lead acid batteries, cost around $3I000. It’s purpose is a backup power source, not a source for charging an EV.

A low cost option would be to subscribe to a net metering plan where all excess solar generation is credited to future bills. We typically have no electricity bill for June -Sept and enough credit to offset some of October.

I bought used solar panels,[5200 watts], 21 KW of Nissan Leaf batteries configured for 48 volts, and necessary inverter and charge controllers etc for $10000 and installed myself. I have driven my Tesla [locally only] for the last two years on solar only.
Figure my payback time for that $10000 will be less than 5 years compared to a gas ICE vehicle. I live on the gulf coast, so like yourself, can use it as a backup system to keep the essentials going during a outage.
No net metering where I live , so did not require a big system.

[Kid Gloves]

Originally Posted by Diesel-Lover

Charging can be done at low utility rates in the wee hours via charge timing if house has smart meter.

Some utilities have free nights or free weekends etc programs so then solar is not crucial plus one can opt for green energy option from the utility.


Above written into the post with pittance near the end


Pittance = cost paid by the utility for your electrons vs costs they charge you for their electrons that difference is being whittled down to a pittance in most areas. You can google the skirmishes going on all across the land between electric companies and private solar roof folks. Most utilities are doing away with net metering as quickly as possible by claiming various costs and safety etc etc.

Batteries were also written in the same sentence as pittance.

If you’re able to provide some or all of your power needs with solar at peak times and charge at off peaks times, the pittance may be in your favor. We’re flat rate, net metering, so none of that matters.

Yes, the utilities are trying to push customers to TOU rates, where they will then move the goals posts to their advantage.

[dbircky]

Originally Posted by Diesel-Lover

Solar generation at home:
StateAverage system size Avg. daily power generation*Annual power generation California 7.33 kW 31 kWh 11,326 kWh

Texas 10.32 kW 42.3 kWh 15,441 kWh

Florida 10.75 kW 43.6 kWh 15,939 kWh
Roof size
California 7.33 kW 21 392 sq ft

Texas 10.32 kW 30 558 sq ft

Florida 10.75 kW 31 577 sq ft
Battery backup Can be used to save energy instead of loosing it to the grid for a pittance! The same can then transfer charge to the vehicle daily or be used by the home. Charging can be done at low utility rates in the wee hours via charge timing if house has smart meter.

Some utilities have free nights or free weekends etc programs so then solar is not crucial plus one can opt for green energy option from the utility.

Average area of a residential roof is 17-18 squares. 1,700 - 1,800 sq ft. I don’t think covering every square foot of a roof is possible or practical. With the slope of the roof and movement of the sun, at any given time are all panels 100% efficient? Are you talking commercial buildings with large flat roofs?

[TheCatsRV]

That is the trouble (point I was trying to make) with home solar is no charging for anyone whose car is gone during the day (great for retirees or those who WFH but they don't drive enough to make the premium for BEV worthwhile).



I have someone in my town who can charge two electric cars (and run several aquariums, his business), but he gone slightly overboard with 140 panels when I visited his place, 20 of which are on a single-axis tracker which he says generate more than 2x the number of fixed panels.


Another factoid, being 45 degrees off optimal (e.g., facing SE or SW instead of S in the northern hemisphere accounts for a 10% loss of generation (or so I've been told).