Red light camera nail you? Maybe a way out

[scenic route]

Getting the picture now...private companies, half the profit. Here in Florida, I've heard on the news of some cameras being taken down and multiple fines thrown out because of fudging with the time durations. Where's the fines/punishments assessed for that? I'd be all for the cameras if you could be assured of not being scammed. Bob

[Midniteoyl]

Some jurisdictions have considered passing laws making the owners of vehicles used to commit crimes responsible for the crime unless they can prove they were not driving the vehicle. I haven't heard whether that has been done successfully

Is like that in Illinois for toll violations.. Owner get the ticket and suspended license if not paid.. Up to you to show it wasnt you driving and that rarely works..

[DrivinMyHome]

I RARELY speed (usually I am 5-15mph UNDER the limit on freeways to save gas. Yeah, that probably was me you honked at, but I was in the slow lane... shoulda just gone around me!). Still, I was against the speed cameras from the day I first heard they were coming. It seems to me to be a bit of a violation of privacy. I figured that they would cause more accidents due to people slamming brakes, swerving because they were blinded by them at night, etc. Plus, a LOT of money was involved in getting them put up along the freeways in Phoenix.

In the first month they arrived, I personally witnessed a rear-ender on the freeway, due to the guy in front hitting his brakes to avoid the ticket and the person behind not slowing fast enough (there was smoke from the front guys tires BEFORE impact). I also witnessed a car swerve violently after being flashed at night, though he was able to keep control.

After a month or so, people got used to them and got into one of two routines: The smarter ones (less dumb?!?) kept their cruise set at 1-2mph under the trigger speed, which I believe was 11mph over the limit. The others would act like an inchworm, speeding up between cameras and slowing for the cameras. Obviously there were those who just abided by the laws (like me) and just watched all of this happening.

After a couple of months, I grew to like the cameras. They (mostly) kept people at a more consistent (and closer to my) speed. When they got rid of them, people IMMEDIATELY went back to their old ways. Part of me wishes they would bring them back, the other part still thinks they are a bit of an overstep of liberties...

As to the red light cameras: I will always be against these. It has been PROVEN (google it) that in many municipalities the yellow got shorter when the cameras were put up. In one case I read about, they shortened it multiple times as people got used to the new time... Since I haul a trailer at times, I know that it is harder to stop and, on lights that I would have normally stopped for in my Honda, I will roll through the yellow.

Another circumstance which makes me wonder: coming out of a gas station that is on the corner. You are accellerating through the light when it changes, and could not stop safely. Then it changes to red while you are in the intersection. This has happened to me a few times, which caused me to think of it. If there was a camera, would it have triggered?

For myself, I know it is only a matter of time where chosing the SAFE option (the yellow lights are there in case you HAVE to go through the light to be safe) will cause me to trigger a red light camera. Hopefully it will happen in Arizona, so I can be there to fight the ticket...

Originally Posted by LadyFitz...

Personally, I favor speeding and red light cameras. They do work and they free up LEOs to protect us from more serious crime instead of having to play nursemaid on immature drivers too selfish and inconsiderate of others to obey traffic laws.

I respectfully disagree... I would wager that they use the cameras as an excuse that they don't need as many officers. With the economy the way it is, even the police departments are cutting costs.

[larry koenn]

Originally Posted by LadyFitz...

Personally, I favor speeding and red light cameras. They do work and they free up LEOs to protect us from more serious crime instead of having to play nursemaid on immature drivers too selfish and inconsiderate of others to obey traffic laws. Keep in mind, driving is a privilege, not a right.

LadyFitz, I agree. I don't know how I could live with myself if I injured or killed someone running a red light or hurt someone while speeding. So I do neither and I don't have any sympathy for those that do. We were recently in Houston and had to be very careful anytime we were first at a red light. You have to wait and look both ways when the light turns green before going. Often cars still go thru 5 to 10 seconds after the light turns. (they voted the camers out, we could see why) And those red light runners kill people every week there.

Then we were on I10 in west Texas where the speed limit was 80 MPH and they say they are moving it up to 85. People were still getting tickets driving faster than 80, I don't know how fast they were going as we went thru at 65 and felt like we were going fast enough. How is 80 MPH not fast enough? I bet if they put the speed limit at 100 MPH sooner or later they would catch somebody speeding. Probably sooner.

Well, I'm done bitchin now.

Larry

[Midniteoyl]

Some places in West Texas (and New Mexico or Kansas for that matter) 100mph is still not enough!

[baraff]

A few years back they had cameras at a busy intersection in Bolingbrook, a suburb of Chicago. It was a total money grab and the city loved it....... until the mayor got nabbed. They were removed within a month.
These things are a forecast of the coming Nanny State. Get used to it because it's all about $$$$$ and zip about safety.
I'd be willing to bet that those who are "pro camera" have not yet gotten nailed. Don't worry, you will.

[TXiceman]

I get tired of the whiners and red light cameras. Like Wayne said...do not run the red light and it is a non-issue.

I look at the red light cameras as a tax on people that are not smart enough to stop for the light. Helps keep my taxes down.

Ken

[Wayne M]

Ladies and gentlemen, trust me, I have gone through yellow lights, red lights and even a stop sign, but never intentionally. I was fortunate in two ways, One, no one was hurt, or even an accident cause. Two, I didn't get caught. Had I been caught, either by a police officer, or a camera - well, I'd just pay the fine and say, "dang it! What did I do that?" What could have been going through my mind at those times. Now granted this was not a continuous sequence of events, but isolated and only once on the red light and stop sign, but I have run my share of yellow lights. Again, when I do so my mind, on the yellow, is asking my a very simple question. Is it safe for me to stop and not cause an accident. As far as running the red light or stop sign - no excuse - but still very lucky.

I don't consider it an invasion of privacy, but a means to increase awareness in safety.

[Sequim Guy]

Twice my son borrowed my pickup truck and got photo speeding tickets, of course they sent them to me, the registered owner. I just made a copy if my drivers license and sent it back with the ticket, said it obviously wasn't me driving. On the ticket there is a place to fill in who was driving, left it blank. Never heard another word from them, also quit loaning my truck to my son for awhile.

.

[bobinyelm]

I have gotten TWO red light camera tickets in Texas so far.

NEITHER time was I driving my vehicle.

BOTH times, my vehicles were in-the-shop for repairs, and the shop had custody of my truck and car. In fact, one time I was 3 states away.

Unfortunately in Texas (at least the town the tickets were given in), you cannot contest the tickets, or claim you were not driving, even if you have PROOF.

The reason is that they do not give the ticket to the DRIVER, they give it to the VEHICLE, for which the registered owner is legally responsible, even if he does not have control of his vehicle at the time. Lots of folks here have traded in cars, only to continue to get tickets because the dealership does not HAVE to transfer until a sale.

In one case I was lucky that the shop-owner covered the $75 fine, at least, and because the VEHICLE gets the ticket, no points are issued against the owner's license.

Let me tell you, it's freaky to be able to enter a web address (shown on your speeding or red-light ticket) onto your computer and watch in living color as your pride-and-joy car or truck runs a red light and careens around a corner at extra-legal speeds, almost T-Boning some poor fellow in the process.

Another pet peeve is that on some roads, when I am towing my 10,000 pound 5th wheel, even at sub-legal speeds, it's virtually impossible to stop given the unrealistically short yellow-to-red timing of the traffic lights.

My solution is to go 25/30 in a 35-45 zone where they state they have Red Light Cameras to avoid getting tickets when towing heavy. It's safe (and keeps me from rear-ending someone in front who CAN stop), but I get cut-off a lot by REALLY irate motorists, and I have fists waved at me regularly.

Fortunately I travel with a loaded firearm much of the time, and if some nut-case comes up with a tire-iron or gun, hopefully I can at least avoid being a victim of road rage, though that is not something I really want to contemplate.

[bertnspike]

You know, I drove to Lazydays in Tampa today through St. Cloud and Kissimmee. At all times I was UNDER the posted speed limit and I kept plenty of distance between me and the other vehicles out there. (I can't believe how quickly people in little cars will whip in front of the MH!!! No sense whatsoever.)

I ran 3 red lights, each of which changed from green to yellow to red before I could even slow down. I saw them go red as I passed under them. If I had even attempted to stop the LEAST dangerous thing that would happen is I'd have ended up in the middle of the intersection anyway!

I don't think there were cameras..... I guess I'll find out soon enough. If there were, I think I will fight it. There is absolutely NO way I could have stopped safely by the time those lights were red. What the heck can ya' do??

[Ramblin]

Originally Posted by LadyFitz...

Unless the law already specifies net or gross revenues, it would be up to the courts to determine the legality of that. Also, constitutionality has nothing to do with it unless the State or Federal Constitution states so. I know the Federal doesn't and I doubt North Carolina's does either.

You know not of which you speak. I would not have said 'unconstitutional' were it not in the Constitution, as that would be prerequisite.

Section 7 of the NC constitution:
(a)
Except as provided in subsection (b) of this section, all moneys, stocks, bonds, and other property belonging to a county school fund, and the proceeds of all penalties and forfeitures and of all fines collected in the several counties for any breach of the penal laws of the State, shall belong to and remain in the several counties, and shall be faithfully appropriated and used exclusively for maintaining free public schools.
(b)
The General Assembly may place in a State fund the proceeds of all civil penalties, forfeitures, and fines which are collected by State agencies and which belong to the public schools pursuant to subsection (a) of this section. Moneys in such State fund shall be faithfully appropriated by the General Assembly, on a per pupil basis, to the counties, to be used exclusively for maintaining free public schools. (2003-423, s.1.)

I ain't no fancy lawyer or nuthin, but this says all ticket revenues go to the schools. Half the revenue from the cameras go out of state to some company whose interest is NOT the increased safety of our fine people, but the automated fleecing of the same. A clear conflict of interest, IMO.

Originally Posted by LadyFitz...

In AZ, the jurisdiction issuing the ticket does have to prove you were the one driving the vehicle. If the photo taken of the driver could not be clearly seen and matched to the driver's license of the vehicle owner, the ticket was rarely issued. Many drivers are able to dodge the ticket by covering their faces. There was one idiot in Scottsdale who deliberately sped through the red light cameras on a section of freeway wearing a monkey mask. The photos were useless for issuing tickets. The police were eventually able to catch the jerk in the act and he got slammed with charges such as obstructing justice, etc. in addition to the speeding ticket.

In NC, they only take a picture of your license plate on the back bumper, last I saw.

Originally Posted by LadyFitz...

Some jurisdictions have considered passing laws making the owners of vehicles used to commit crimes responsible for the crime unless they can prove they were not driving the vehicle. I haven't heard whether that has been done successfully.

Wow... You're OK with this?

Originally Posted by LadyFitz...

Actually, the cameras have been proven to have had a positive impact on safety.

Red Light Camera Studies
Yet Another Study Shows Red Light Cameras Cause More Accidents And Aren't Needed | Techdirt
In general. t-bone accidents decline a little and rear end accidents skyrocket. At best, it's a wash.

Originally Posted by LadyFitz...

As far as shortening yellow light durations, this thread is the first time I have ever heard of this happening. If is (and it very well may be), it hasn't happened in very many places and very likely can be fought in court.

They are very very difficult to fight in court because you would have to be able to show that they did indeed shorten the yellow for the camera install.
6 Cities That Were Caught Shortening Yellow Light Times For Profit
Short Yellow Lights Mean More Tickets, Money For Cities
Shorter yellow lights boost red-light camera revenue - CNET News
...and many more...

Originally Posted by LadyFitz...

Frankly, all I've been seeing in this thread are just poor rationalizations attempting to justify running red lights.

Not from me you haven't. I don't condone anyone running red lights. What you heard from me is disdain about good people being robo-fleeced by their local governments at the cost of ACTUAL safety measures (like LENGTHENING yellow light durations, proven to be MORE effective than red light cameras, but alas generate no revenue).

Originally Posted by LadyFitz...

Personally, I favor speeding and red light cameras. They do work and they free up LEOs to protect us from more serious crime instead of having to play nursemaid on immature drivers too selfish and inconsiderate of others to obey traffic laws. Keep in mind, driving is a privilege, not a right.

Don't get me started on speed limit enforcement...

[Sequim Guy]

Not sure about Florida, but in Arizona, as long as you have passed the "curb line" before the light turns red, you are good.

[Shore2Shore]

Having lived in England/Europe for all my life before moving to the USA, have seen speed & red light cameras grow in number.

Have heard all the arguments for, against and all the government / safety groups propaganda. Both red light & speed cameras were first used at traffic junctions etc with high accident &fatality rates, plus certain areas like school zones aswell as small English country villages with narrow roads, blind turns & steep hills.

At first totally justified places for such control as they did understood reduce accidents and deaths, but also the powers that be saw just how lucrative the devices were!!

Basically a very good & solid idea that does indeed work but then over used as a license to print money!!! So after seeing how much revenue they raked in more and more cameras popped up,at increasingly stupid & worthless places.

Then different types of camera started appearing, something called "average speed camera's "..these beauties take your average speed taken between two cameras. Go past 1st camera picture taken, then certain distance down the road a 2nd camera takes your pic again, measuring a set amount of time at certain speed for distance between the two cameras.

Utter pain in the rear, yes you should always be aware & alert while driving but constantly checking the speed and whereabouts of camera's actually takes your eyes and concentration off the road in front.

With some red light cameras they were/ are literally 35mm cameras in a grey metal box!!! At least early ones in england were,even if you see the flash go off it may of run out of film so no ticket turning up in the post!

Now modern ones are probably all digital and network linked, if snapped you just wait for the envelope to arrive, but as people have already said you have to tell them who was driving etc..which some people have ignored and no further action taken, but alot now actually snap the face of the driver behind the wheel so hard to wriggle out of those ones.

Plenty of arguments against them and the tickets given out, with breach of human rights, invasion of privacy etc etc, with some tickets being dismissed with these arguments but for the long term they are there to stay being such a great stealth tax!!