Super C, DP, or HDT & Big TT

[Like2Fish]

Originally Posted by Finance

Get what you like, I say. You've driven enough to know your preferences sounds like.

Personally I'd do a super C and a stacker trailer, just because I like smaller vehicles as a daily driver.

Believe it or not that's exactly where I started out. I really liked the Renegade 45 XL, but was going to have to have to get the 40' to make the stacker work length wise. Then on top of that you have to deal with the trailer everytime you stop as all won't usually fit on 1 site. It's always going to be a compromise for some things. So far the biggest drawback for me is just the added expense and very slight parking issue of using the HDT as a DD. However, on the plus side of that is the fact that it is a whole lot safer to be in if someone plows into you and you are in the catbird seat while sightseeing.

[vito.a]

I'm not sure I agree with your reasoning.
Length: A short class 8 tractor is over 20' and many with sleepers are 30' long. Just the nose area on a conventional tractor uses up 10-12'. It would be possible to limit overall length to 64' with a shorter 5th wheel trailer, but the truck would be just a cab and hitch. Then, it has the same issue as any other truck and trailer in that you must pull over to get a sandwich or go to the bathroom. What if it's raining out.

Cost: A base Freightliner tractor costs $120k and a nice Peterbuilt approaches $170k. A custom trailer is going to be very expensive and drive the cost way up.

Amenities: I do like some of the high end 5th wheels, but try to find one with a diesel generator, Aqua Hot, Auto Leveling, pure sine inverter, 220V washer and dryer, and on and on. The same can be said for the Super C's. A friend has a very expensive Icon Z (over $750k) and it still does not have all the amenities a high end class A DP has. But, it can tow 40,000 lbs.

My opinion: I would recommend you purchase a used high end diesel pusher (Foretravel, Newell, Prevost, or others) and an enclosed aluminum trailer. It may also exceed your 64' length, but if you have a CDL it doesn't matter. It will be less expensive in the long run, more comfortable to live in, easier to purchase, have better resale and will have more nice features.
If you decide to limit the budget to $250k, then shop for a less expensive diesel pusher.

[ScoobyDoo]

Originally Posted by Like2Fish

I don't know where you got the idea that I need a boat. I'm primarily a surf fisherman (as in fishing from the beach). Mostly USA east coast and gulf coasts. I only need the TV for the 2 of us and could simply remove the Refrigerator and reinstall the back seat when reselling. I'm also planning on putting a chest freezer in the back of the body along with a commercial vacuum sealing machine which will only leave me enough room in the rear to ramp in the beach cart. Hope that this clears up what I'm trying to accomplish.

If you don't need the boat, much easier. The 12 ft bed I had on my old F-500 would of took a pretty fair sized fridge in the right front box, if removed the shelves/drawers. I don't know how big your "beach cart" is, but about half the space between the boxes was MT with the compressor and welder in place.
I like that you are thinking outside the box, just tossing out ideas that might have to cross the box to get to you.

Originally Posted by vito.a

I'm not sure I agree with your reasoning.
Length: A short class 8 tractor is over 20' and many with sleepers are 30' long. Just the nose area on a conventional tractor uses up 10-12'. It would be possible to limit overall length to 64' with a shorter 5th wheel trailer, but the truck would be just a cab and hitch. Then, it has the same issue as any other truck and trailer in that you must pull over to get a sandwich or go to the bathroom. What if it's raining out.

You must look at trucks different than I. 10-12 feet of nose? Back when I was shopping and worried about tractor too long, Class 8s ran IIRC, 83, 102, and 120 inches BBC plus sleeper. My last conventional Pete, with a 60 inch sleeper was around 15 feet bumper to back of sleeper. Never measured it, but don't think would of been over 10 feet to end of rails. With the weights OP is talking about, would not need a twin-screw.
Another outside the box idea; You mentioned tri-axle trailer. Could you run tandem axles, with single 22.5 wheels? Without getting into high dollar tires you could carry 26,000 on the pair, would turn easier, and likely waste less space.

[Finance]

I did see a couple a while back towing a Mobile Suites with a class 8. Loaded a Smart car sideways between the cab and the fifth wheel. Wish I could have watched them run the car up the loading ramps but never witnessed that.

I used to think it would be fun to buy a tilt bed wrecker and use it as a tow vehicle. Daily driver on the back, trailer behind.

[Like2Fish]

Originally Posted by ScoobyDoo

If you don't need the boat, much easier. The 12 ft bed I had on my old F-500 would of took a pretty fair sized fridge in the right front box, if removed the shelves/drawers. I don't know how big your "beach cart" is, but about half the space between the boxes was MT with the compressor and welder in place.
I like that you are thinking outside the box, just tossing out ideas that might have to cross the box to get to you.




You must look at trucks different than I. 10-12 feet of nose? Back when I was shopping and worried about tractor too long, Class 8s ran IIRC, 83, 102, and 120 inches BBC plus sleeper. My last conventional Pete, with a 60 inch sleeper was around 15 feet bumper to back of sleeper. Never measured it, but don't think would of been over 10 feet to end of rails. With the weights OP is talking about, would not need a twin-screw.
Another outside the box idea; You mentioned tri-axle trailer. Could you run tandem axles, with single 22.5 wheels? Without getting into high dollar tires you could carry 26,000 on the pair, would turn easier, and likely waste less space.

For the Freightliner M2 TV I'm thinking of a 198" WB with an 11 ft. utility body for an OAL of 25'-26'.
For the TT I like the idea of the 22.5" wheels and tandem axles. I'll have to do some research to see if I can find 13K-15K axles with disc brakes. I was going to be using 3 MoRyde IS 9K axles with disc brakes, however, that is the max size that Moryde makes.

[Like2Fish]

Originally Posted by vito.a

I'm not sure I agree with your reasoning.
Length: A short class 8 tractor is over 20' and many with sleepers are 30' long. Just the nose area on a conventional tractor uses up 10-12'. It would be possible to limit overall length to 64' with a shorter 5th wheel trailer, but the truck would be just a cab and hitch. Then, it has the same issue as any other truck and trailer in that you must pull over to get a sandwich or go to the bathroom. What if it's raining out.

Cost: A base Freightliner tractor costs $120k and a nice Peterbuilt approaches $170k. A custom trailer is going to be very expensive and drive the cost way up.

Amenities: I do like some of the high end 5th wheels, but try to find one with a diesel generator, Aqua Hot, Auto Leveling, pure sine inverter, 220V washer and dryer, and on and on. The same can be said for the Super C's. A friend has a very expensive Icon Z (over $750k) and it still does not have all the amenities a high end class A DP has. But, it can tow 40,000 lbs.

My opinion: I would recommend you purchase a used high end diesel pusher (Foretravel, Newell, Prevost, or others) and an enclosed aluminum trailer. It may also exceed your 64' length, but if you have a CDL it doesn't matter. It will be less expensive in the long run, more comfortable to live in, easier to purchase, have better resale and will have more nice features.
If you decide to limit the budget to $250k, then shop for a less expensive diesel pusher.

I guess that you did not read all of my posts on this thread. I don't need to comment on the truck part o ver again and we are talking about a big TT not a 5er. As far as having to stop to use the trailer for a sandwich or bathroom break I would do that even if I had a DP. You can put your DW through the windshield or have your cabinets hit you in the bacm of your head if you have to stop or crash while doing either, but I'm not that stupid. I'm always amused at the few DP owners that cite that reason for purchasing a DP. It is a really dumb thing to do and even dumber to admit to actually doing it. Anyone that walks around inside of a moving vehicle is risking serious injury if the brakes get applied.
As far as the TT amenities go one can get absolutely anything they want in a custom build from either New Horizons or Spacecraft.

[PKI]

The only thought I would add is that comfort may be an issue with that level of vehicle. We have talked to one fellow who used a light duty tractor to tow his fifth wheel. It came out of the horsey set world. He liked the approach a lot, except it had a terrible ride. He added an air suspension and still was less than satisfied. Now that does not mean you will be, but it's a lot of daily driver to push around and those commercial boxes are really heavy.

The positive is the custom trailer. It could have a true 4 season insulation package, fire proof/resistant construction, roof structure with limited or no water entry potential, and low profile to allow easy entry and exit when the body refuses to climb those tall steps. Certainly possible to build a game changer.

If there is any way you can convince yourself that a lighter package is possible, as in fewer tools, lighter construction materials, and just less gear, then the rig would be more cost effective to operate and easier to handle in future years.

Do not ignore your RV exit plan. Resale value is a great consideration, but the eventual purchase price of your exit solution will increase while you are enjoying the RV lifestyle. Lots of solutions and a home base can be the cornerstone. It can also be purchased now and provide income or residence while your adventures grow.

Over all, your thoughts add some bright light to the RV choice discussion. Keep researching. Talk to the horsey set, the racers (vintage NASCAR), the custom trailer folks and the places you want to visit.

[Like2Fish]

Originally Posted by PKI

The only thought I would add is that comfort may be an issue with that level of vehicle. We have talked to one fellow who used a light duty tractor to tow his fifth wheel. It came out of the horsey set world. He liked the approach a lot, except it had a terrible ride. He added an air suspension and still was less than satisfied. Now that does not mean you will be, but it's a lot of daily driver to push around and those commercial boxes are really heavy.

The positive is the custom trailer. It could have a true 4 season insulation package, fire proof/resistant construction, roof structure with limited or no water entry potential, and low profile to allow easy entry and exit when the body refuses to climb those tall steps. Certainly possible to build a game changer.

If there is any way you can convince yourself that a lighter package is possible, as in fewer tools, lighter construction materials, and just less gear, then the rig would be more cost effective to operate and easier to handle in future years.

Do not ignore your RV exit plan. Resale value is a great consideration, but the eventual purchase price of your exit solution will increase while you are enjoying the RV lifestyle. Lots of solutions and a home base can be the cornerstone. It can also be purchased now and provide income or residence while your adventures grow.

Over all, your thoughts add some bright light to the RV choice discussion. Keep researching. Talk to the horsey set, the racers (vintage NASCAR), the custom trailer folks and the places you want to visit.

Thank you very much for your comments. I have driven two different Sportchassis trucks. They were both RV 5th wheel haulers and had a real nice ride. I'm sure that they would have been even smoother if I would have been towing. I liked their trucks, however, I want an enclosed Utility body on the truck and they don't make one like that. Since I have the time I am probably going to order a new truck and build it into what I can use for my purposes.

[MoDodge]

I have a Freightliner M2 and NH fairly large TT. There are several guys that have HDT's towing large TT's out there. One that I know of is a tandem axle Volvo towing a 48' SpaceCraft TT. I think that he is 78' long. He has about a 12'-15' enclosed box (garage) behind the cab and inside even has an overhead crane for lifting stuff in and out. There is a YouTube video of it somewhere the Escapees HDT forum. Ihave tried to attach a picture of my rig to this but don't know if it will show up or not. Good luck with your project.

[Like2Fish]

Originally Posted by MoDodge

I have a Freightliner M2 and NH fairly large TT. There are several guys that have HDT's towing large TT's out there. One that I know of is a tandem axle Attachment 229065Volvo towing a 48' SpaceCraft TT. I think that he is 78' long. He has about a 12'-15' enclosed box (garage) behind the cab and inside even has an overhead crane for lifting stuff in and out. There is a YouTube video of it somewhere the Escapees HDT forum. Ihave tried to attach a picture of my rig to this but don't know if it will show up or not. Good luck with your project.

That is a really nice looking combo. Thank you very much for posting it. Can you give me some dimensions and weights? What year is it and did you buy it new or used? How does it tow? Is there anything that you would add or delete if you were to do it over? I know that this is a lot of questions, but I would really appreciate your input. One last question, that you don't have to answer is your costs in this combo. Please don't feel offended.

[MoDodge]

Originally Posted by Like2Fish

That is a really nice looking combo. Thank you very much for posting it. Can you give me some dimensions and weights? What year is it and did you buy it new or used? How does it tow? Is there anything that you would add or delete if you were to do it over? I know that this is a lot of questions, but I would really appreciate your input. One last question, that you don't have to answer is your costs in this combo. Please don't feel offended.

I will be happy to answer your questions. Basically what I have is a 5er disguised as a TT. It's a 2017 New Horizons TT built on the same size frame as a 5er. It has a custom floorplan and steps up to the BR just like a 5er, but with a lot more basement storage. I have 4 all hydraulic slides, a W/D, 8K diesel generator with a built in 35 gallon fuel tank, 100lb. LP Tank, Magnum 2812 Inverter with 900 amp hour battery bank, 65" TV , Winegard Traveler satellite, double theater recliners, etc. It's a 33' box 37'6" OAL, 8'6" wide, 13'4" high, tongue weight is 3,400 lbs.,weight is 24,100 lbs.on 3 Moryde 9K "IS" axles, 2-5/16" 30K hitch ball, Air Safe custom 30K air ride hitch
The truck is a 2018 Freightliner M2-112 with a DD13 505HP diesel engine, 320 amp alternator, Allison TV4000 6 speed automatic transmission 1,650 ft. lbs. Of torque, 4:11 gears, 140 gallon fuel, 13 gallon DEF, air ride self leveling suspension, air ride seats, air disc brakes all around, plus every option that I could get including an extended Freightliner 5 year 350,000 mile warranty. I put a Knapheide KUV CC 11' body on mine, however, they also have a 13' and other mfgs.have just about any size and type of body that you would want. The FL is 25' long, loaded weight is 23,900 lbs.GVWR is 36,500 lbs.,GCVWR is 72,000 lbs. I have a Refrigerator, freezer, and Magnum 2812 Inverter with 900 amp battery bank. My total connected length is 63 ft. I have about $175K in the truck plus my time (other than setting the body onto the truck I did all work myself, took about 3 months) and 250K in the TT. The truck drives really smooth and absolutely no sway or wag when towing. It is much more comfortable and maneuverable than my previous TV which was a Dodge 5500. I would not delete anything if doing it over and have added things that I wanted as I need them for my particular lifestyle. My DW an I have been FT for 2-1/2 years so far and this has been our best combo rig so far. We previously had Tt's, 5ers, and MH. This seems to have the best of all worlds for us. Don't be afraid to get a big TT. Most, if not all of the negative TT stories that you hear about are because of undersized TVs. If you want all the size benefits of a 5er and want to also use your truck bed you can get a custom built TT and a HDT TV and live happily ever after!!

[ScoobyDoo]

[QUOTE=Like2Fish;4542241]For the Freightliner M2 TV I'm thinking of a 198" WB with an 11 ft. utility body for an OAL of 25'-26'.

It is pretty much a given that a 5th wheel will tow more stable than a bumper pull. Is it the design of hitch? No. The height of hitch? Tongue/pin weight percentage? From my experience, moving the hitch/pivot point closer to the rear axle, with no other changes, will reduce the effect of sway, and reduce weight transfer from front axle of TV to rear, allowing heavier TW without overloading rear axle. If building a truck for towing, I would want all the wheels as close to corners as possible. Put all the storage over, or ahead of the rear tires...

For the TT I like the idea of the 22.5" wheels and tandem axles. I'll have to do some research to see if I can find 13K-15K axles with disc brakes. I was going to be using 3 MoRyde IS 9K axles with disc brakes, however, that is the max size that Moryde makes.

Look at truck axles...

[Like2Fish]

Originally Posted by MoDodge

I will be happy to answer your questions. Basically what I have is a 5er disguised as a TT. It's a 2017 New Horizons TT built on the same size frame as a 5er. It has a custom floorplan and steps up to the BR just like a 5er, but with a lot more basement storage. I have 4 all hydraulic slides, a W/D, 8K diesel generator with a built in 35 gallon fuel tank, 100lb. LP Tank, Magnum 2812 Inverter with 900 amp hour battery bank, 65" TV , Winegard Traveler satellite, double theater recliners, etc. It's a 33' box 37'6" OAL, 8'6" wide, 13'4" high, tongue weight is 3,400 lbs.,weight is 24,100 lbs.on 3 Moryde 9K "IS" axles, 2-5/16" 30K hitch ball, Air Safe custom 30K air ride hitch
The truck is a 2018 Freightliner M2-112 with a DD13 505HP diesel engine, 320 amp alternator, Allison TV4000 6 speed automatic transmission 1,650 ft. lbs. Of torque, 4:11 gears, 140 gallon fuel, 13 gallon DEF, air ride self leveling suspension, air ride seats, air disc brakes all around, plus every option that I could get including an extended Freightliner 5 year 350,000 mile warranty. I put a Knapheide KUV CC 11' body on mine, however, they also have a 13' and other mfgs.have just about any size and type of body that you would want. The FL is 25' long, loaded weight is 23,900 lbs.GVWR is 36,500 lbs.,GCVWR is 72,000 lbs. I have a Refrigerator, freezer, and Magnum 2812 Inverter with 900 amp battery bank. My total connected length is 63 ft. I have about $175K in the truck plus my time (other than setting the body onto the truck I did all work myself, took about 3 months) and 250K in the TT. The truck drives really smooth and absolutely no sway or wag when towing. It is much more comfortable and maneuverable than my previous TV which was a Dodge 5500. I would not delete anything if doing it over and have added things that I wanted as I need them for my particular lifestyle. My DW an I have been FT for 2-1/2 years so far and this has been our best combo rig so far. We previously had Tt's, 5ers, and MH. This seems to have the best of all worlds for us. Don't be afraid to get a big TT. Most, if not all of the negative TT stories that you hear about are because of undersized TVs. If you want all the size benefits of a 5er and want to also use your truck bed you can get a custom built TT and a HDT TV and live happily ever after!!

First, I want to thank you very much for all this information. I was beginning to think that nobody has ever built one of these types of RV combos before. I'm thinking that the combination of the pin weight of 3,400 lbs. (14%) and the self leveling air suspension are a major factor in the good towing ride that you are experiencing. I know that when I'm towing one of our heavy equipment (pintle hook trailers) that they tow much better with more weight on the tongue. These are 20 ton air brake trailers, but same idea, but our truck s did not have the self leveling suspension. I did look up the Air Safe hitch and it is also a very interesting concept. Can you comment on your experiences with it? Did you ever tow this TT with your Dodge 5500 ?

[MoDodge]

Originally Posted by Like2Fish

First, I want to thank you very much for all this information. I was beginning to think that nobody has ever built one of these types of RV combos before. I'm thinking that the combination of the pin weight of 3,400 lbs. (14%) and the self leveling air suspension are a major factor in the good towing ride that you are experiencing. I know that when I'm towing one of our heavy equipment (pintle hook trailers) that they tow much better with more weight on the tongue. These are 20 ton air brake trailers, but same idea, but our truck s did not have the self leveling suspension. I did look up the Air Safe hitch and it is also a very interesting concept. Can you comment on your experiences with it? Did you ever tow this TT with your Dodge 5500 ?

I think that there are a couple of helpful factors involved in the excellent towing abilities of my rig. First, the heavier weight of the truck itself at 24K helps a lot as wind and other HDT'S passing, and TT pushing have no effect on it. Second, the heavy pin weight of 3,400 lbs. eliminates bouncing. The self leveling suspension keeps the truck level and eliminates the need for a WD system which makes hooking up and disconnecting a real breeze. The Air Safe hitch takes all of the "chucking" out of the ride when you are on segmented concrete highways or bumpy roads. I learned about them from reading a post on a HDT forum.
I did tow this TT with my Dodge 5500 when I first got the NH TT.. My Dodge also had a utility body on it and it weighed 16K. It towed my Excel TT that weighed 16K just fine. However, it was overloaded at 40K+ gross with the NH. It still towed it pretty good though especially on the flats. I towed it through the Dakotas and went through 3 BD Exhaust brake actuators and was down into 1st and 2ond gears climbing the hills and decided that it was too risky. My main concern was that if the trailer brakes ever failed that I would be toast and so would whatever I hit with the 40K combo. My personal opinion is that you should have a brake system on your truck that is rated to stop your cvw. I have (in a safe location) practiced with my trailer brakes disconnected to see how well it stops and the HDT is by far superior over the Dodge for this heavier weight TT. BTW, I suggest that you go to the National HDT rally in Hutchinson, Kansas in October where you can see several of these types of rigs all in one place and talk with the owners.. They are a great group of RVers.