Texas non-CDL requirements for RVs

[FlyingDiver]

Originally Posted by nalcon

Actually, I think you can take a written test and get a learners permit for the MH. That allows you to drive the mh. You don't need another person with you while you're driving. When ready, go take the driving test.

Not true. If you take the written test, you get a 'Provisional" license. In order to use that license, there needs to be someone in the vehicle with the correct class of license. DW has such a license.

joe

[FlyingDiver]

Oh, and the way you do it legally (if you can't borrow an appropriate size RV and driver) is go to a truck driving school. For a fee, you get instruction and the use of a vehicle for the test. Of course, you end up with a CDL since it's a commercial vehicle you're taking the test in and you need to be testing for a CDL to drive it.

That's what I did. One of these days I'll get the Class B CDL downgraded to a non-CDL. Probably when it's up for renewal.

And yes, I think anyone that drives something that big DOES need to prove they know what they're doing. Especially if it has air brakes, which most people have no clue about.

joe

[Wayne M]

Originally Posted by chasfm11

You may be correct but I cannot find any documentation for that in Texas. Perhaps I'm just looking in the wrong places. When we bought our RV, I spent time on the phone with DPS until I confirmed that I didn't need a special license. A learner's permit was never mentioned in those conversations.

It is not a "learner's permit." It is called an "Instruction Permit," and you must have a properly licensed driver with you when you are driving. And the licensed driver must have been licensed for at least 1 year. Minimum age for an instruction permit is 15 years of age. That does not mean that you have to be ONLY 15 to get such a permit, but any age, and the permit will be for whatever class you desire to take the written test for before getting the permit.



Quote:
3) How do I obtain an instruction permit? In addition to testing, applicants for an instruction permit must present and do the following:

Age 18 and over

• Present proof of Identity and Social Security Number. 37 Texas Administrative Code 15.24, 37 Texas Administrative Code 15.42, Texas Transportation Code 521.044.
• Provide proof of Texas vehicle registration and liability insurance, if you own a vehicle. Texas Transportation Code 521.143.
• Complete required forms available at any Texas Driver License office.
• Surrender out-of-state permit/license. (If coming from out-of-state) Texas Transportation Code 521.182.
• Pay the required fee. 37 Texas Administrative Code 15.40, Texas Transportation Code 521.421.
• Pass the written and vision examinations. 37 Texas Administrative Code 15.51, 37 Texas Administrative Code 15.52, Texas Transportation Code 521.161.
• Application must include photograph and thumbprints; however, thumbprints are not included on the driver license. 37 Texas Administrative Code 15.44, 37 Texas Administrative Code 15.45, Texas Transportation Code 521.142.

UNQUOTE
Ref: TXDOT FAQ

Ref: TX DPS License Division

It took me no time to find this information by searching for "texas driver's license" without the quotes and reading the side bars.

The information that you read in the driver's license handbook is basic information and in no way represents the entire set of laws related to driving on the highways of Texas. Example (as I have been told by a DPS officer that I know very well) If you are on the interstate and put your turn signal on, you have the right of way. (Yeah! Right!) If you are on a feeder road, and someone coming off the freeway changes lanes abruptly after passing the "solid" line and hits you. Make sure the officer investigating takes measurements because it is illegal to change lanes in less than 100 feet. Same goes on any street. (We sometimes call it weaving.) If you are on the feeder road, and traffic is stop and go, and you cross the solid line on the side of the road to turn into a parking lot, you have violated the law and can be ticketed. (Ask my friend how he knows.)

I would bet that the percentage of driver's licenses that are just standard are extremely high. The typical DPS person would not know about Class A or B rules and regulations. The only person I would trust with an answer is a DPS driving inspector, and then I'd make sure there were two of them present when I asked the question, as I have done.

What is that old saying, "Ignorance of the law is no excuse." Just pay the fine!!

[chasfm11]

Originally Posted by Wayne M

it.
It took me no time to find this information by searching for "texas driver's license" without the quotes and reading the side bars.

Wayne, I think we are talking apples and oranges here. I understand the Instructional permit and the conditions that are listed for it to be offered.

The situation that I presented was different than that. It was essentially that I already hold a valid Texas Class C driver's license. I want to buy an out of State RV that weighs over 26,000 lbs. My guess is that, under those conditions, you cannot get a DPS office to issue you an instructional License. In your example, the "surrender any out of State license" would also apply to the Texas Class C. If that did happen, I would not then be allowed to drive a passenger vehicle, just because I have an Instructional Permit to figure out the non-CDL Class A or B????? When you get ready to try to do that, please tell me which DPS office you are going to. I want o sell tickets. It should be quite entertaining. Look a Jim's example and all he asked for was the instructional materials.

Let's face it. This is a mess. If you do manage to end up complying with the laws, it is more by accident than by any reasonable set of actions.

I do agree that people who drive RVs with air brakes should understand how those brakes work. I'll contend, however, the current process isn't going to help that much. Yes, there is material in the CDL on air brakes and yes, you do have to pass a pre-trip inspection which includes some air brake related components. I'm convinced that you can do a little reading, pass the test and the checkout and still not know how air brake systems work or should be maintained. So the whole current approach doesn't accomplish that purpose. An then there are guys like me who have air brakes and vehicles with a GVW of 22K. Gotta love my Class C license.

[Elkhartjim]

Originally Posted by Wayne M

The typical DPS person would not know about Class A or B rules and regulations. The only person I would trust with an answer is a DPS driving inspector, and then I'd make sure there were two of them present when I asked the question, as I have done.

That is exactly the folks I left in a "heated" debate...two of the three were driving inspectors. Go figure.

[Wayne M]

This has always been a never ending topic. (Woulda, Coulda, Shoulda.)

Chas,
I don't believe that you have to surrender your Class C to get an instruction permit for a Class A or B. I'll have to get a couple inspectors together and see what they come up with. Interesting thought though. Also, you would still need a licensed A or B driver with you when you went to pick up the out of state MH. Hmmm! Wonder if out of state would recognize an instruction permit.

I actually had the discussion with two inspectors regarding the proper class of license for a MH weighting 27,000 pounds dry, and a vehicle being towed that weighed less than 10,000 pounds. They both tended to agree that only a class c was needed, but then I pointed out the Chapter 521 in the manual, and one changed his mind, and the other quipped in, "You would need at least a class B."

Guess I taught them something!!!!

[chasfm11]

Originally Posted by Wayne M

This has always been a never ending topic. (Woulda, Coulda, Shoulda.)

Chas,
I don't believe that you have to surrender your Class C to get an instruction permit for a Class A or B. I'll have to get a couple inspectors together and see what they come up with. Interesting thought though.

One of the "guiding principals" as I understand it is that you cannot have more than one license ( or in this case a Class C and and Provisional). That is the reason that they collect any other, including out of State licenses.

I do understand the premise of "ignorance is no excuse." At the same time, if the situation is so vague that the instructors who are supposed to administer it don't understand it, what chance to the rest of us mere mortals have?

My points all along have been:
1. The statutes are poorly written and difficult to interpret, even by the professionals
2. A great percentage of the drivers involved ignore them, based on ignorance or difficulty dealing with them. As a result, a significant percentage of those who should have the additional licenses don't.
3. While there may be some value in this as there is any testing exercise, it falls woefully short of the reasonable goal of making sure that those who drive large RVs or combinations can handle them well enough to not be a lethal threat to the rest of us.

No one has presented evidence to counter any of those. To me, it is just another example of the government doing something "because they can." We have far too many situations just like this one. Whatever worthy purpose the endeavor served is lost in crappy implementation.

[JVJ]

I sat down and wrote a nice long rebuttal to many of the above comments, but then thought better of posting it.
I am one of the few that believe that simply put, the required license is Texas Law, and thus should be complied with...Period.
However, many seem to view this law as an optional feature and choose not to conform for any given number of reasons/excused or personal rationale.
That being said, Me thinks it's time to let sleeping dogs lie.

[JVJ]

However, if you are one of these folks who are saying I can't go get my license due to not having a properly licensed driver to go to the DMV with me to take the test. And you live in the DFW, Texas area, shoot me a PM, I'll try my best to meet you and make the trip with you to the DMV for testing. You can schedule to take the written test and the driving test the same day. If you have been taking part in this post or others like it, chances are you have been driving your rig for awhile and don't really need the learners permit, or provisional license to learn how to drive your choice of RV.

[tedward1555]

I'm currently driving with a temp class c paper waiting on the permanent one to arrive in the mail. They say it could take 5 weeks and I have a trip planned next week. Without getting into the heated sides of this discussion, because I intend to comply with the law as soon as possible, does anyone know what the fine is for driving a Class A motorhome without a class b license in Texas?

[chasfm11]

Originally Posted by JVJ

However, if you are one of these folks who are saying I can't go get my license due to not having a properly licensed driver to go to the DMV with me to take the test. And you live in the DFW, Texas area, shoot me a PM, I'll try my best to meet you and make the trip with you to the DMV for testing. You can schedule to take the written test and the driving test the same day. If you have been taking part in this post or others like it, chances are you have been driving your rig for awhile and don't really need the learners permit, or provisional license to learn how to drive your choice of RV.

Yours is a very generous offer. I understand and agree that the goal of these and many other programs is to achieve compliance. The more that can be done to help with that compliance, the better. I applaud your effort.

The discussion points go beyond that. Let's assume, for a moment, that we now magically have 100% compliance. What has changed as a result? As you point out, some have been driving their RVs with standard, not special licenses and with no apparent ill effects on the driving public. I must assume that your expectation is that those involved will learn enough in the written and driving examinations to be better drivers. That is were you and I differ. Again, it isn't that some good doesn't come out of the special licensing process. It is that the process is not going to make good drivers out of those who go through it. It may make some more aware of mechanical things like pre-trip inspections but, overall, it wouldn't make a fraction of a percentage change. It would be interesting to see the failure rates for the testing and to see the specific reasons about why they failed. It should be an indication of how many bad drivers (who would flunk the test if they took it) there are among the the untested population. My expectation is that less than 1% of those tested flunk the actual driving portion of the test. I expect that most fail the written test and then because of more CDL related questions on it. Of those failures in the driving portion, I expect more to be in the pre-trip area than behind the wheel by a wide margin. I welcome input from anyone with access to the information (assuming that it is even available) that refutes my expectation.

Today, some who shouldn't be driving RVs are do it. Some of those same people may not be safe behind the wheel of a regular motor vehicle. I feel strongly, however, that if the quantity of people in that category were more than a few, we would be reading about it in the newspapers. Today's highway situations are not kind to the those that cannot handle their vehicles.

My personal experience has been the opposite. I've traveled on business a lot and been in many States across the country. I have yet to see any RV that I felt was being operated in a reckless or uncontrolled manner. Yes, I've seen a few of all types pass me, traveling a lot faster than they should have been. But in terms of putting the public at risk through unsafe operation, the next situation that I see will be my first. As a whole, RV drivers appear to be far more safety oriented than the rest of the driving public. Perhaps there is a recognition among the majority of them that they are operating a large vehicle or combination and need to do so in a safe manner. I know the models of larger MHs pretty well and often watch to see what they are doing. Assuming that at least a third of the ones that I see are driving without the proper license, they sure haven't shown me any indication of which ones they were.

Concession point:
- the industry average for RVs is about 3,500 miles per year. It is hard for anyone to get themselves in trouble, driving that little. You would really have to be bad.

Wrapup
My point about the "no legal path to get a license" wasn't about that specifically. It was about the fact that it was an indicator that the whole RV licensing situation is simply an afterthought, so that the States can say that they are doing something about it. It isn't because it is the right thing, something that really protects the rest of the driving public or produces any tangible results. IMHO, we have far too many situations like this happening. RV inspections are another. Only governments can get away with doing stuff and not measuring the effects and results. That is why our Federal government is still paying people to grow wool for military uniforms.

[Wayne M]

Tedward,
Do you need a higher class license for your Class A. Some Class A's fall in the category of a Class C license.

I would not be so concerned about a ticket for an improperly licensed class, as I would be if something should happen and the insurance company starts questioning. Heaven forbid that anything happens to any RV'er, but the possibilities are there.

Originally Posted by tedward1555

I'm currently driving with a temp class c paper waiting on the permanent one to arrive in the mail. They say it could take 5 weeks and I have a trip planned next week. Without getting into the heated sides of this discussion, because I intend to comply with the law as soon as possible, does anyone know what the fine is for driving a Class A motorhome without a class b license in Texas?

[tedward1555]

Originally Posted by Wayne M

Tedward,
Do you need a higher class license for your Class A. Some Class A's fall in the category of a Class C license.

I would not be so concerned about a ticket for an improperly licensed class, as I would be if something should happen and the insurance company starts questioning. Heaven forbid that anything happens to any RV'er, but the possibilities are there.

Mine is over 26,000 pounds so I assume I do need a class b. I'm not worried about insurance because I left a message for my state farm agent and asked that question, and I have her on voice mail with a reply that no such license is needed to guarantee coverage.

[Wayne M]

Do hang onto that message as a security crutch.

I wonder if you were to go down and get an instruction permit for a class B, if they would take the class C from you, and you could still drive a class C with a class B instruction permit. Hmmm! When I get home next week I'm going to take a trip down to the DPS station and ask some more questions - if I can get two inspectors at the same time. I'll make sure I have the book with me also.

I'm curious as heck. I have a Class A Non-CDL that I just converted from a CDl this past year. I don't drive commercially anymore and with a CDL if you get a ticket there is no relief with defensive driving.