Community Forums

J Birder · 02-23-2021, 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roy-c

The company my son works for became ISO certified. He was Mate on a ship and in charge of navigation, plotting the course that the ship would follow. Only question ISO auditor asked him was when you plot the course do you make sure that it won't take the ship over land ?
ISO is a load of garbage. It absolutely doesn't mean a quality product.

Wrong. The ISO 9000 series are very useful, and compliance will usually assure a high quality product. Certification may very well be a pile of garbage.

Dr Obbins · 02-23-2021, 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kid Gloves

And if the customer isn’t satisfied or the product doesn’t meet their expectations, do we have a no quality product, or could it possibly be a poor quality product?

If we have different levels of good quality products, is there a point at which we might start to consider some of them to be low quality products?

What you’ve described is that quality is based on individual perceptions. One person may be satisfied with a McDonalds burger while another may not. The same product would be a quality product to one but not the other. Brand A may meet the expectations of one person and be considered substandard by another. If someone convinces themselves that the product they bought meets their expectations when it really doesn’t, do they have a quality product?

What sort of standard do we have under such conditions?

Quality is in the eye of the beholder. You will never get 100% agreements on anything. Use your standard if the product meets or exceed your expectations. To make a decision before buy, do research and read reviews.

J Birder · 02-23-2021, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kid Gloves

Back to Michelangelo. Quality or no quality?

That is a meaningless question. With no specification to meet, quality is completely undefined for Michelangelo's work. You might just as well ask if the moon is high quality

Joel

J Birder · 02-23-2021, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Obbins

Quality is in the eye of the beholder. You will never get 100% agreements on anything. Use your standard if the product meets or exceed your expectations. To make a decision before buy, do research and read reviews.

"Goodness" is in the eye of the beholder. It can't be defined, or measured. Quality is compliance to a specific product specific specification. It can be both defined and measured.

If I say that it's cold outside, I've stated an opinion. You are perfectly free to disagree with me. If I say the temperature is 12° F ± 1/2°F, I've stated a fact. If you want to disagree with me, you need to provide some evidence.

Joel

GypsyR · 02-23-2021, 08:32 AM

I guess the narrower your definition of quality, the easier it is to define.
In my way of looking at it, quality applies to absolutely everything. Without quality judgement, a fine steak dinner and a can of dog food are the same thing. Specification or no.
"Quality of life" is phrase bandied about a bit. There's a tough one to quantify.

There are many ways to look at quality. I think there can be multiple ways of doing so without any of them being wrong.
Darned if we didn't get into metaphysics a little.

richard5933 · 02-23-2021, 08:40 AM

To have a quality end product you have to use quality materials and quality skilled labor to construct it. You have to make the correct choices when balancing between cost weight and quality, and you have to make the correct choices when balancing between adding more 'stuff' at the expense of the quality of that 'stuff'.

Dr Obbins · 02-23-2021, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J Birder

"Goodness" is in the eye of the beholder. It can't be defined, or measured. Quality is compliance to a specific product specific specification. It can be both defined and measured.

If I say that it's cold outside, I've stated an opinion. You are perfectly free to disagree with me. If I say the temperature is 12° F ± 1/2°F, I've stated a fact. If you want to disagree with me, you need to provide some evidence.

Joel

My definition of quality = meets or exceeds customer expectations. Not specifications. A car can be made 100% to print, and still fall apart on the road.

Kid Gloves · 02-23-2021, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J Birder

That is a meaningless question. With no specification to meet, quality is completely undefined for Michelangelo's work. You might just as well ask if the moon is high quality

Joel

You’ve already answered the meaningless question. Michelangelo’s work is, apparently, “no” quality, because there are no ISO standards for such work. You have since added the terms “good quality” and “high quality” to your original “quality” or “no quality” terms.

Is the ISO 9000/1 QMS, “ISO certified” as a quality system?

If quality is subjective, as some have suggested, then using a rigid set of standards to determine quality is a rather meaningless endeavor. If a product that performs as designed, but does not meet a customers expectations is it no longer a quality product? Or does that customer have unrealistic expectations? Does the customer or the manufacturer determine when expectations have been met?

igave · 02-23-2021, 09:24 AM

We’re in the weeds.

**pasdad1** · 02-23-2021, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Donskiman

Hopefully RVs aren't assembled in the haphazard fashion you're implying. Certainly the crews must receive some guidance and aren't just guessing. Please say you've just made this up as a story and it's not what's really happening.

I do believe that is how they are made. The better manufacturers employ workers with a better work ethic and skill set (Amish) and also the fact that there is low turnover of the employees, means there is much better consistency.

Newmar builds every class A on the same “assembly line”, so a worker can do his part on a $900,000 rig, and then the next rig is a $180,000 one, and so on. They get the skill in working on them all, but each one is a little different, plus Newmar is somewhat unique in that they let the owners customize the builds.

I spent weeks in Nappanee, Indiana last year and continue to be impressed with the Amish culture....we should all strive to be as thoughtful, honest and skilled as the folks I met.

Dr Obbins · 02-23-2021, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kid Gloves

You’ve already answered the meaningless question. Michelangelo’s work is, apparently, “no” quality, because there are no ISO standards for such work. You have since added the terms “good quality” and “high quality” to your original “quality” or “no quality” terms.

Is the ISO 9000/1 QMS, “ISO certified” as a quality system?

If quality is subjective, as some have suggested, then using a rigid set of standards to determine quality is a rather meaningless endeavor. If a product that performs as designed, but does not meet a customers expectations is it no longer a quality product? Or does that customer have unrealistic expectations? Does the customer or the manufacturer determine when expectations have been met?

An ISO standard is different than ISO Certified. For instance ISO has a standard defining what an inch is. The standard probably includes a specific metal at a specific temperature of a specific size.

Now to be ISO Certified, the company can define what it calls an inch. It can reference the ISO inch but will have to provide tolerances. Or in it's own procedure they can define what they call an inch. If they get the certification or not is judged on how well they meet their own definition of an inch. ISO certification only states that a company has to have policies and procedures in place and then follow them. "Say what you do - Do what you say". No where does it say that the policies and procedures have to be good.

A company could define an inch as the length of my thumb. ISO certification will verify that everywhere an inch is referenced in the company, it is the length of my thumb. If it is, the company will pass an audit and be certified.

Kid Gloves · 02-23-2021, 10:18 AM

You’ve convinced me that it is an exceptionally useless operation.

Dr Obbins · 02-23-2021, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kid Gloves

You’ve convinced me that it is an exceptionally useless operation.

Well luckily most of the companies who go through all the effort and expense to become certified take it seriously. It is not easy or cheap.

gatorb8 · 02-23-2021, 10:32 AM

Quality is measured by how well something meets a specification. And, since there is no industry or RV company specification, it can't be measured.

So it is subjectively measured based on the customers expectation and luck, which leads to the full spectrum of customer happiness to unhappiness.

The difference between ordeal and adventure is attitude......you need a good attitude when buying an rv or it will be an ordeal.