What is QUALITY

[Kid Gloves]

Well, “Quality” is a wonderfully vague term. It can be good or bad, high or low. So, by definition, all RV’s have quality of one sort or another.

Choose wisely.

[RRR]

Quality to me is not finding the manufacture doing stupid stuff that most of us shake our heads at and mutter a certain phrase.

Things like jack bolts jammed into the chassis wiring loom.
Propane lines just draped along and laying on crossmembers.
Pulling the chassis or house wiring tight as a fiddle string then routing it across sharp metal.
Drilling 1 1/4" holes in the floor to pass two 16 gauge wires through and not filling them with foam.
Connecting heat ducts to the register.
Fasten door tracks to ceiling so they don't fall out.
Not stripping out self-screws so the microwave falls out.
Getting the dash mounting screws into something other than air, stripping out the ones that hit something solid.
Properly tightening plumbing fittings so we don't have floods.
Properly tighten clamps on the fuel fill neck, so we don't have a puddle of gas under the tank.
Not supporting washer drain standpipe so it just flops around.
Washer shutoff valves and ice maker shutoff valve hidden behind false walls.
Staples in wiring and plumbing.

Things like this are just poor workmanship by people who are not trained and don't care because management doesn't. I don't think any of these items would have added $5.00 to the cost of the product.

[Bill Gail]

Quality

Over the years I'm still amazed at the definitions and interpretations I've heard for what that word means .

The best explanation I've ever heard for its meaning is something a renowned Architect shared with me .

Quality is achieved when a product meets your expectations .

So , lack of quality doesn't always mean a poor product . Something can be built exactly to specifications , using approved materials and equipment and within budget .

But , if it doesn't meet that person's expectations it hasn't achieved Quality .

By this definition , the RV Manufacturers are failing their customers . They constantly oversell and underdeliver . The only reason I can see for them still being in business is they are the only show in town . They are in a market where a reputable company making a quality product gets bought out by a larger mass production company thereby lowering the overall quality of RV's being produced.

Capitalism , while a great theory , always rises to the lowest common denominator .

So take solace in that we are all living and dealing with the same issues.

[petrel]

If you are handy, I'd recommend previously owned with no warranty. I'd prefer to fix things myself, rather than traveling to the dealer and enduring protracted waits for service or parts.

IMHO Quality in a motorhome:
Accessible, professional customer service who knows your rig and what is in it by build number.
Driving characteristics that make the driver comfortable and confident at highway speeds.
No rattles or squeaks while on the road.
Not having to yell over engine noise.
Not having to put padding between your dishes.
Cabinet doors, drawers, and closets that stay closed when traveling.
Equipment neatly installed and accessible.
Practical well thought out design without excess gadgetry or complication.
Observing that the manufacturer makes the same or distinctly similar models year after year, and you still see the older units on the road.
Minimal negative internet chatter about the make and model you are considering.

If you find a rig you like, insist on driving it on the highway. Nothing highlights deficiencies in build quality quite like a few miles of bad road at 65-70mph.

[Teamfoxy]

To me, quality is having everything function reliably as intended regardless of what you paid for it. You can have a Mercedes, that is higher luxury, but not nessesarily higher quality than a Chevy.
You mention similarities between HR and Fleetwood which are both products of the REV group. Coachmen is a division of Forest River. But much like shopping for SUV's it is surprising how much alike the different brands look. They make what they think people will buy.
We bought our 2011 Mirada because it was light enough to go over 10 ton bridges and fit into campgrounds we like. It happens to have as much OCCC as other brands built on much higher rated chassis. There have been no builder related issues with it and we are happy not to have paid twice as much for a Newmar or Tiffin.

[J Birder]

What is quality?

It depends on who you ask. A quality professional will tell you that quality is conformance to specifications. Typically, detailed specifications fo any RV, simply don't exist. Therefore, the quality of an RV is completely undefined.

To a non quality professional, quality is a rather vague term. It roughly means "goodness." Is the item well built? Does it function as expected? Will it hold up over time?

We need to understand that RVs don't come off of an assembly line. They are essentially hand crafted. No two are ever alike. Consider the following scenario:

Mike is doing the wiring in an RV. He knows that h needs to connect point A to point B. Unfortunately, he has nothing to tell him what gauge wire to use, what color it should be, or how and where it should be routed.

Later, Bob is installing some cabinets. He knows roughly where the cabinets should be, and he knows that he needs some screws to hold them up, but he has nothing that tells him what gauge screws to use, how long they should be, how many to use, what size pilot hole to drill, or exactly where to place the screws.

Some time later, Pete and Sam each buy one. Pete gets lucky. His had heavy enough wiring. The cabinets had enough screws that were big enough, and a suitable length. The pilot holes weren't too big, and all of the screws actually went into something solid. None of his screws hit any of Mike's wires.

Sam is less lucky. Some of the wires used were undersized, and will eventually heat up and start a fire. One of the screws that Bob used for the cabinets penetrated one of Mike's wires, so four months later, 12 volt power to the refrigerator is lost. Bob was really having a bad day, He didn't use enough screws, and some of them didn't screw into anything solid. One of them was too long, and penetrated the outer skin. On Sam' first trip, he drives across a railroad track, and the cabinet falls off of the wall, breaking all of his dishes.

Pete will tell people that this manufacturer has really great quality. Sam will tell you that this manufacturer has absolutely terrible quality. Actually, both are wrong. In the absence of detailed specifications, quality is completely undefined. The word simply has no meaning at all.

Unfortunately, this is how most, if not all RVs are produced.

Joel

[SmackIt]

Pirsig's Metaphysics of Quality - From the book Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance

"Quality...you know what it is, yet you don’t know what it is. But that’s self-contradictory. But some things are better than others, that is, they have more quality. But when you try to say what the quality is, apart from the things that have it, it all goes poof! There’s nothing to talk about. But if you can’t say what Quality is, how do you know what it is, or how do you know that it even exists? If no one knows what it is, then for all practical purposes it doesn’t exist at all. But for all practical purposes it really does exist.”

Read the quote a couple of times and think about it.

[brobox]

I have owned a lot of RV's over the years. "Quality" is what an owner puts into it. No matter how much one pays for an RV's the first 2 years are more than likely going to have a few loose screws that need to be address and vendor items that don't work. As the price goes up, so does the quality of insulation and construction that one does not see in the showroom, it's behind the walls.

[RoadEyePie]

Originally Posted by J Birder

What is quality?

We need to understand that RVs don't come off of an assembly line. They are essentially hand crafted. No two are ever alike. Consider the following scenario:

Joel

I worked in an RV manufacturing plant in Denver in the '70s and it absolutely was an assembly line. But it burnt to the ground. Don't have a clue what the company name or brand was...some sort of class b was the line I worked on. I also worked for Bluebird Wonderlodge in Ft. Valley, GA....same thing....assembly line. I also went on 5 factory tours and they were all assembly lines.

[J Birder]

Originally Posted by RoadEyePie

I worked in an RV manufacturing plant in Denver in the '70s and it absolutely was an assembly line. But it burnt to the ground. Don't have a clue what the company name or brand was...some sort of class b was the line I worked on. I also worked for Bluebird Wonderlodge in Ft. Valley, GA....same thing....assembly line. I also went on 5 factory tours and they were all assembly lines.

Really!
Were there drawings to to show you how each wire was to be routed?
Were there jigs or fixtures so that each screw went in the same spot each time?
Were there part numbers for each type of screw used?
Were there drawings to tell you the part number of the screw to be used in each application?
If the answer to any of these, or any of 100 similar questions is NO, then they were hand crafted, not assembly line produced.
oel

[Kid Gloves]

There’s a difference in quality between handcrafted and slapped together. Each one, however has a certain, quality.

Ever see the time lapse video of a Jayco TT being assembled in 7 hours? Slapped together on an assembly line, or handcrafted at a work station? You tell me.

[J Birder]

Originally Posted by Kid Gloves

There’s a difference in quality between handcrafted and slapped together. Each one, however has a certain, quality.

Ever see the time lapse video of a Jayco TT being assembled in 7 hours? Slapped together on an assembly line, or handcrafted at a work station? You tell me.

There is absolutely no difference in quality between handcrafted and slapped together. In either case, quality is completely undefined. It is not uncommon to confuse quality with something else, that may have a number of names. I tend to think of that something else as "goodness."


A hand crafted object may be very good, or it may be terrible, depending on the skill of the maker. In a real quality system, the result should not depend on who the worker is. Any two workers should get precisely the same result.


Joel

[igave]

OP: Aren’t you glad you asked? As you can see, quality is up to the person and it’s different for most everyone. The new vs used question will also never have a definitive answer. You’ll see the same opinions offered from the same people on thread after thread but the answer varies by the person-the right answer is only what you’ll be happy with.
You’re right to do as much research as you can, but remember to separate opinion and brand bias from things that are factually accurate. As several so far have said: the right one is the one you and your wife enjoy and are happy with.

[J Birder]

Originally Posted by igave

OP: Aren’t you glad you asked? As you can see, quality is up to the person and it’s different for most everyone. The new vs used question will also never have a definitive answer. You’ll see the same opinions offered from the same people on thread after thread but the answer varies by the person-the right answer is only what you’ll be happy with.
You’re right to do as much research as you can, but remember to separate opinion and brand bias from things that are factually accurate. As several so far have said: the right one is the one you and your wife enjoy and are happy with.

If everybody is free to define words in whatever way they want, the result is not language, but chaos. That's why we have dictionaries. dictionaries may be fine for non-technical word, but for technical words, we often need something more detailed.


Quality is defined in a generally accepted international standard, ISO 9000. Anybody who wants to use it differently, should be obligated to provide a definition.


Joel