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Old 06-05-2022, 06:51 AM   #29
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A new oil refinery hasn't been built in the US in over 50 years. The demand has increased since then.
No oil company is going to build another with the attempt to go to EV.
We are in a 'pump till it is dry' place and nothing is going to change that.
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Old 06-05-2022, 07:04 AM   #30
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The video with is a bit mis-leading as it is does not show the Shameek Konar testimony in it's entirety and the selected short clips we are allowed to see make it look like fuel delivery is the main focus. If you watch the entire testimony video, which is out there, the main focus with UP deliveries is DEF, not fuel, but by with holding the parts of the testimony that make that obvious, we are getting incorrect assumptions. Some would say "fake news"
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Old 06-05-2022, 07:29 AM   #31
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Maybe it's because capitalism is an unstable broken system and we need to get over the taboo of treating it as if it's the only possible system for a modern world.


Unstable broken system. Was this the prevailing thought a couple of years ago when fuel prices were much lower? Central planning has never worked, and I offer that much of the current problems are a result of government actions. As consumers in a capitalist society we can determine prices by NOT purchasing any item we feel is overpriced. Central planning results in higher prices and lower quality. I give as an example milk prices in PA. They have a milk board that determines prices paid, milk there is at least a dollar or two more than in in OH.
It is that instability that makes it great, consumer have the choice to not buy something until the price reflects the value they perceive in an item.
Ive noticed people get upset about the other person making a profit, but never themselves.
Why are fuel prices up? Simple demand is up and supply is down. Demand is up due to more money injected into society and supply is down due to restrictions, sanctions and uncertainty. Those are all results created by government actions.
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Old 06-05-2022, 08:27 AM   #32
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Old 06-05-2022, 08:28 AM   #33
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Unstable broken system. Was this the prevailing thought a couple of years ago when fuel prices were much lower? Central planning has never worked, and I offer that much of the current problems are a result of government actions. As consumers in a capitalist society we can determine prices by NOT purchasing any item we feel is overpriced. Central planning results in higher prices and lower quality. I give as an example milk prices in PA. They have a milk board that determines prices paid, milk there is at least a dollar or two more than in in OH.
It is that instability that makes it great, consumer have the choice to not buy something until the price reflects the value they perceive in an item.
Ive noticed people get upset about the other person making a profit, but never themselves.
Why are fuel prices up? Simple demand is up and supply is down. Demand is up due to more money injected into society and supply is down due to restrictions, sanctions and uncertainty. Those are all results created by government actions.
You are correct, demand is up but supply lacking, but it wasnt the government who decided that drilling for new oil should all but stop in 2020 dropping from over 880 oil well drilling rigs operating in November 2018, down to only 180 operating by August 2020. At least that number is back up over 550 and climbing albeit slowly, and it isnt the government that is stopping oil companies from drilling more new wells. The decision to stop drilling and the decision to increase drilling are made by oil companies and not the government.
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Old 06-05-2022, 08:52 AM   #34
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Back in 2020 the demand for fuel dropped off precipitously resulting in low prices such that refineries could not make a profit. They took this opportunity to mothball the oldest, least efficient and least profitable of their production lines. Now demand is back up but the mothballed production lines are no longer available. We have to wait until new, more efficient and cleaner production lines are brought on line. Unfortunately that takes years and I expect prices to remain high until the next bust cycle. This scenario is not unusual. Progress is never steady but rather goes in boom-bust cycles.
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Old 06-05-2022, 08:57 AM   #35
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Back in 2020 the demand for fuel dropped off precipitously resulting in low prices such that refineries could not make a profit. They took this opportunity to mothball the oldest, least efficient and least profitable of their production lines. Now demand is back up but the mothballed production lines are no longer available. We have to wait until new, more efficient and cleaner production lines are brought on line. Unfortunately that takes years and I expect prices to remain high until the next bust cycle. This scenario is not unusual. Progress is never steady but rather goes in boom-bust cycles.
Boom and bust cycles are well known and understood by anyone familiar with the oil industry.
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Old 06-06-2022, 07:50 AM   #36
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Back in 2020 the demand for fuel dropped off precipitously resulting in low prices such that refineries could not make a profit. They took this opportunity to mothball the oldest, least efficient and least profitable of their production lines. Now demand is back up but the mothballed production lines are no longer available. We have to wait until new, more efficient and cleaner production lines are brought on line. Unfortunately that takes years and I expect prices to remain high until the next bust cycle. This scenario is not unusual. Progress is never steady but rather goes in boom-bust cycles.
Under the current political and media climate, no one would invest in a new refinery. People can claim price gouging, can claim no one is stopping the oil companies from drilling, refining, and selling fossil fuels. But the industry can see the writing on the wall.

Would you invest a few hundred million dollars in capital to drill, capture and refine oil & gas, knowing that despite the claims of politicians to the contrary, they are committed to killing off your industry as quick as they can.

My issue is not with the killing of the petrochemical industry. It is with trying to kill off the petrochemical industry before you have a working solution in the world of EV and electrical energy in general.
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Old 06-06-2022, 08:11 AM   #37
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There's been plenty of time to build new refineries but why should they?
Before EV was cool they could've built more refineries but they didn't because the oil companies can control supply better with fewer refineries.
From 1970 until now gas has increased in demand. It was met well enough with the current crop of refineries. Building more refineries would mean a greater supply which in turn would drive the cost down.
Can't have the cost going down and wrecking profit margins.
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Old 06-06-2022, 08:26 AM   #38
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I almost hate to interject facts into the "which party has had higher gas prices" (note I did not say "which party caused or controlled gas prices"), but the graph in this article is worth a look:


https://news.yahoo.com/from-the-newm...133921112.html


Yes, and my OPINION is that presidents (of either party) really have very little control over short term gas prices. And, given the alternating D/R/D/R/D/R/D presidential parties, sorting out long-term effects by party are at best muddled.


Blaming/crediting any president for lower fuel prices during the substantially reduced consumption during COVID makes no sense IMO.
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Old 06-06-2022, 09:58 AM   #39
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There are government inflation #s, and there are real inflation numbers. The pain is current.
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Old 06-06-2022, 10:14 AM   #40
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There are government inflation #s, and there are real inflation numbers. The pain is current.
Yup, especially in Mendicino, Califunny where the reported price for regular this morning was $9.76.9 per gallon.
Kinda reminds me of Y2K. We'll need new pumps with room for another digit.

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Old 06-06-2022, 10:23 AM   #41
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I almost hate to interject facts into the "which party has had higher gas prices" (note I did not say "which party caused or controlled gas prices"), but the graph in this article is worth a look:


https://news.yahoo.com/from-the-newm...133921112.html


Yes, and my OPINION is that presidents (of either party) really have very little control over short term gas prices. And, given the alternating D/R/D/R/D/R/D presidential parties, sorting out long-term effects by party are at best muddled.


Blaming/crediting any president for lower fuel prices during the substantially reduced consumption during COVID makes no sense IMO.
One fact that has yet to be mentioned is that fuel prices would not have been as low as they were in 2020, or as high as they are now had it not been for the pandemic.
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Old 06-06-2022, 10:32 AM   #42
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It is a stated goal to end fossil fuels. If your business was targeted for elimination would you invest large sums in improving and expanding? Dont forget your source of funding that expansion, big banks, have been warned the will suffer Politically and economically through ESG ratings if they continue to fund your operations .Would you take a long term view or attempt to maximize profits while you could? Some of the pain at the pump is a direct result of the war on fossil fuels being waged.
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