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06-06-2008, 08:49 AM
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#1
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Administrator in Memoriam
Appalachian Campers
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Buladean, NC
Posts: 8,126
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Interesting 'Fortune' article, hope it's right:
Why oil prices will tank
Arguments that $4-a-gallon gas (or even higher) is here to stay are dead wrong. Housing's boom-and-bust cycle tells you why.
By Shawn Tully, editor at large
NEW YORK (Fortune) -- High-flying tech stocks crashed. The roaring housing market crumbled. And oil, rest assured, will follow the same path down.
Not everyone agrees. In an echo of our most recent market frenzies, some experts pronounce that the "world has changed," and that the demand spikes, supply disruptions, and government bungling we face now will saddle us with a future of $4, $5 or even $10 a gallon gasoline.
But if you stick to basic economics, it's clear that the only question is when - not if - prices will succumb.
The oil bulls are correct in their explanations of why prices have jumped. It's indisputable that worldwide demand has surged, chiefly driven by strong growth in China, India and the Middle East. It's also true that most of the world's reserves are controlled by governments in places like Russia and Venezuela that mismanage production, thus curtailing supply growth.
But rather than forming a permanent new plateau for prices - as the bulls contend - those forces are causing a classically unstable market that's destined for a steep fall.
In a normal oil market, the cost of producing the last, most expensive barrel of oil needed to satisfy worldwide demand sets the price for every barrel the world over. Other auction commodity markets work much the same way.
So even if Saudi Arabia produces at $4 a barrel, if the final, multi-millionth barrel required to heat houses and run cars costs $50, and is produced, for argument's sake, at a flagging field in West Texas, the world price is $50. That's what economists call the equilibrium price: It's where the price that customers are willing to pay meets the production cost, including a cushion, naturally, for profit or "the cost of capital."
But today, the sudden surge in demand and the production bottlenecks have thrown the market radically out of balance.
Almost exactly the same thing happened in the housing market. And both housing and oil supply react to a surge in demand with a long lag. In housing, the lag is caused by restrictive zoning and development laws, especially in coastal markets like California and Florida.
So when the economy roared back in 2002 and 2003, builders couldn't turn out homes fast enough for buyers armed with those cheap mortgages. As a result, prices spiked. They no longer bore any relation to the actual cost of buying and improving land, or constructing and marketing a new house (at some reasonable profit margin). Instead, frenzied buyers were setting the price.
Because builders were reaping huge windfall profits, they rushed to buy and develop land. And sure enough, those new houses were ready just as buyers were retreating to the sidelines because they could no longer afford to buy a home. That vast overhang of unsold homes is what's driving down prices today.
The story is much the same with oil, with a twist. A big swath of the market isn't really paying that $125 a barrel number you hear about seemingly every hour. In China, India and the Middle East, governments are heavily subsidizing oil for their consumers and corporations, leading to rampant over-consumption - and driving up prices even more.
But sooner or later the world won't keep paying those prices: Eventually, the price must fall back to the cost of that last barrel to clear the market.
So what does that barrel cost today? According to Stephen Brown, an economist at the Dallas Federal Reserve, that final barrel costs just $50 to produce. And when the price is $125, the incentive to pour out more oil, like homebuilders' incentive to build more two years ago, is irresistible.
It takes a while to develop new supplies of oil, but the signs of a surge are already in place. Shale oil costing around $70 a barrel is now being produced in the Dakotas. Tar sands are attracting investment in Canada, also at around $70. New technology could soon minimize the pollution caused by producing oil from our super-plentiful supplies of coal.
"History suggests that when there's this much money to be made, new supplies do get developed," says Brown.
That's just the supply side of the equation. Demand should start to decline as well, albeit gradually.
"Historically, the oil market has under-anticipated the amount of conservation brought on by high prices," says Brown. Sales of big cars are collapsing; Americans are cutting down on driving. The airlines are scaling back flights.
We've learned another important lesson from the housing market: The longer prices stay stratospheric, the worse the eventual crash - simply because the higher the prices and bigger the profit margins, the bigger the incentive to over-produce.
It's even possible that, a few years hence, we could see a sustained period of plentiful oil supplies and low prices, meaning $50 or below.
A similar scenario occurred following the price explosion in the 1970s and early 1980s. The price spike caused the world to cut back sharply on oil consumption. By the mid-80s, oil prices had fallen from almost $40 to around $15. They remained extremely low for two decades.
It's impossible to predict how the adjustment this time will take shape, just as it was in housing. There the surge in supply came in places the experts swore there was "no supply," and wouldn't be any. Builders found a way to extend vast tracts of homes into California's Inland Empire and Central Valley, and even build "in-fill" projects near the densely-populated coasts.
An earlier bubble is also instructive. In the early 1980s silver prices jumped from $10 to $50 on the theory that the world was facing a permanent shortage of silver. Suddenly ads appeared asking homeowners to bring their tea sets and jewelry to Holiday Inns for a big price. Silver supplies poured from seemingly nowhere, out of America's cupboards, of all places.
And so it will be with oil. We don't know where the new abundance will come from, from shale, or tar sands or coal or an OPEC desperate to regain market share. We just know that it will appear. With prices like these, it always does.
__________________
'11 GMC Acadia SLT AWD
'11 GMC Sierra 1500 4x4 Extended Cab
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06-06-2008, 08:49 AM
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#2
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Administrator in Memoriam
Appalachian Campers
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Buladean, NC
Posts: 8,126
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Interesting 'Fortune' article, hope it's right:
Why oil prices will tank
Arguments that $4-a-gallon gas (or even higher) is here to stay are dead wrong. Housing's boom-and-bust cycle tells you why.
By Shawn Tully, editor at large
NEW YORK (Fortune) -- High-flying tech stocks crashed. The roaring housing market crumbled. And oil, rest assured, will follow the same path down.
Not everyone agrees. In an echo of our most recent market frenzies, some experts pronounce that the "world has changed," and that the demand spikes, supply disruptions, and government bungling we face now will saddle us with a future of $4, $5 or even $10 a gallon gasoline.
But if you stick to basic economics, it's clear that the only question is when - not if - prices will succumb.
The oil bulls are correct in their explanations of why prices have jumped. It's indisputable that worldwide demand has surged, chiefly driven by strong growth in China, India and the Middle East. It's also true that most of the world's reserves are controlled by governments in places like Russia and Venezuela that mismanage production, thus curtailing supply growth.
But rather than forming a permanent new plateau for prices - as the bulls contend - those forces are causing a classically unstable market that's destined for a steep fall.
In a normal oil market, the cost of producing the last, most expensive barrel of oil needed to satisfy worldwide demand sets the price for every barrel the world over. Other auction commodity markets work much the same way.
So even if Saudi Arabia produces at $4 a barrel, if the final, multi-millionth barrel required to heat houses and run cars costs $50, and is produced, for argument's sake, at a flagging field in West Texas, the world price is $50. That's what economists call the equilibrium price: It's where the price that customers are willing to pay meets the production cost, including a cushion, naturally, for profit or "the cost of capital."
But today, the sudden surge in demand and the production bottlenecks have thrown the market radically out of balance.
Almost exactly the same thing happened in the housing market. And both housing and oil supply react to a surge in demand with a long lag. In housing, the lag is caused by restrictive zoning and development laws, especially in coastal markets like California and Florida.
So when the economy roared back in 2002 and 2003, builders couldn't turn out homes fast enough for buyers armed with those cheap mortgages. As a result, prices spiked. They no longer bore any relation to the actual cost of buying and improving land, or constructing and marketing a new house (at some reasonable profit margin). Instead, frenzied buyers were setting the price.
Because builders were reaping huge windfall profits, they rushed to buy and develop land. And sure enough, those new houses were ready just as buyers were retreating to the sidelines because they could no longer afford to buy a home. That vast overhang of unsold homes is what's driving down prices today.
The story is much the same with oil, with a twist. A big swath of the market isn't really paying that $125 a barrel number you hear about seemingly every hour. In China, India and the Middle East, governments are heavily subsidizing oil for their consumers and corporations, leading to rampant over-consumption - and driving up prices even more.
But sooner or later the world won't keep paying those prices: Eventually, the price must fall back to the cost of that last barrel to clear the market.
So what does that barrel cost today? According to Stephen Brown, an economist at the Dallas Federal Reserve, that final barrel costs just $50 to produce. And when the price is $125, the incentive to pour out more oil, like homebuilders' incentive to build more two years ago, is irresistible.
It takes a while to develop new supplies of oil, but the signs of a surge are already in place. Shale oil costing around $70 a barrel is now being produced in the Dakotas. Tar sands are attracting investment in Canada, also at around $70. New technology could soon minimize the pollution caused by producing oil from our super-plentiful supplies of coal.
"History suggests that when there's this much money to be made, new supplies do get developed," says Brown.
That's just the supply side of the equation. Demand should start to decline as well, albeit gradually.
"Historically, the oil market has under-anticipated the amount of conservation brought on by high prices," says Brown. Sales of big cars are collapsing; Americans are cutting down on driving. The airlines are scaling back flights.
We've learned another important lesson from the housing market: The longer prices stay stratospheric, the worse the eventual crash - simply because the higher the prices and bigger the profit margins, the bigger the incentive to over-produce.
It's even possible that, a few years hence, we could see a sustained period of plentiful oil supplies and low prices, meaning $50 or below.
A similar scenario occurred following the price explosion in the 1970s and early 1980s. The price spike caused the world to cut back sharply on oil consumption. By the mid-80s, oil prices had fallen from almost $40 to around $15. They remained extremely low for two decades.
It's impossible to predict how the adjustment this time will take shape, just as it was in housing. There the surge in supply came in places the experts swore there was "no supply," and wouldn't be any. Builders found a way to extend vast tracts of homes into California's Inland Empire and Central Valley, and even build "in-fill" projects near the densely-populated coasts.
An earlier bubble is also instructive. In the early 1980s silver prices jumped from $10 to $50 on the theory that the world was facing a permanent shortage of silver. Suddenly ads appeared asking homeowners to bring their tea sets and jewelry to Holiday Inns for a big price. Silver supplies poured from seemingly nowhere, out of America's cupboards, of all places.
And so it will be with oil. We don't know where the new abundance will come from, from shale, or tar sands or coal or an OPEC desperate to regain market share. We just know that it will appear. With prices like these, it always does.
__________________
'11 GMC Acadia SLT AWD
'11 GMC Sierra 1500 4x4 Extended Cab
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06-06-2008, 09:57 AM
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#3
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Senior Member
National RV Owners Club
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 2,178
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Wonder what kind of odds they're giving in Vegas on oil prices dropping?
__________________
Joe & Angie
Shih Tzu's Cookie & Rocky
2001 Tradewinds 7390 2011 CRV EX-L Navi w/ RoadMaster FuseMaster
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06-06-2008, 10:41 AM
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#4
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Senior Member
Mid Atlantic Campers
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: McVeytown, PA
Posts: 2,259
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With all the Harvard and Warton school educated oil people in the Opec coalition, I have no doubt they to will figure out your theory. They must have a plan to maximize there profits on their fixed assets.
But, like many others, I sure hope your right.
__________________
Steve, Pat, Hakbar, & Root Motor
2007 National RV Pacifica 36'
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06-06-2008, 11:00 AM
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#5
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Administrator in Memoriam
Newmar Owners Club Retired Fire Service RVer's Spartan Chassis
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Newark, DE
Posts: 25,898
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I have read several articles along these lines.
One can only hope the bubble will burst.
__________________
Adios, Dirk - '84 Real Lite Truck Camper, '86 Wilderness Cimarron TT, previously 4 years as a fulltimer in a '07 DSDP
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06-06-2008, 11:27 AM
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#6
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Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Blairsville,GA
Posts: 257
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All we need is one OPEC nation to get greedy, and want more share of the market, then they will start producing more, starting a price war if we are lucky.
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06-06-2008, 01:45 PM
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#7
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Administrator in Memoriam
Appalachian Campers
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Buladean, NC
Posts: 8,126
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Today's jump of $11 a barrel sure makes you question a price tanking theory, doesn't it?
__________________
'11 GMC Acadia SLT AWD
'11 GMC Sierra 1500 4x4 Extended Cab
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06-06-2008, 02:11 PM
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#8
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Moderator in Memoriam
Monaco Owners Club
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Mesa, AZ, USA
Posts: 2,361
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Yea, the price of diesel just started to drop, last week it was 4.79 around here, and 4.66 at Loves wed it was 4.69 around town and 4,55 at loves guess it going up again. Darn
__________________
Jim (SSG US Army Ret.) and Cheri (TSG Phx ANG Ret.) Mesa, AZ
2006 Dodge Ram 2500 HD Mega Cab Diesel | 2005 Honda Goldwing | 2006 35' Dune Chaser 5th Wheel
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06-06-2008, 02:13 PM
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#9
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Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Dalton Ma/Crystal River Fl
Posts: 574
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I`m hopin the theory is correct and it happens in my lifetime, but the number of RVs for sale in the classified section says there isn`t too much confidence short term.
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06-06-2008, 02:18 PM
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#10
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Senior Member
Winnebago Owners Club
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Zephyrhills, FL
Posts: 935
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Three weeks ago I sat in on a financial seminar at which the Chief Financial Analyst of a major national investment company spoke.
He reported virtually the same story and predicted it would occur later in 2008.
__________________
'14 Winnebago Vista 35F, '14 GMC Terrain BlueOx Towing Pkg, SMI Stay-n-Play 49 States & 7 Provinces visited in MH | WIT W112365
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06-06-2008, 02:22 PM
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#11
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Senior Member
Newmar Owners Club
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Wellington, Florida
Posts: 13,600
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You're OP is correct. It is the way a free market works. Even OPEC can not control an inflated price forever. For me, the only difference between now and in the past is that the playing field for the world (economically speaking) is flat. This may mean the excessive swings may be more of a bell curve than a spike and cliff.
For me, this is more than fuel prices. It is difficult to see history being made, when you are living through it. The standard of living in the USA has been far above all other countries. This too may be part of a bell curve we (the USA) must work through. We now compete with the rest of the planet for every $ of revenue/income and everything we consume.
In the last half of the 20th century we have seen a rebalancing of many countrys' economies and standard of living. Western European countries, England and Japan to name a few. Even Mexico had an awakening from 1999 through 2003, when their economy became too expensive. It was easy to see this because it was happening to somebody else.
The world economies and the technologies that support growth and economic leadership are moving forward at a pace never before seen, in all of recorded history. What may frighten many of us is that the unknown is changing faster than we can grasp any individual solution.
For those who have family members in school consider advising them to do their homework and make their career their passion (not just a job). Kids in emerging countries are doing just that.
__________________
Gary
2005 Newmar KSDP 3910 + GMC ENVOY XUV 37K lbs Moving Down The Road
The Avatar Is Many Times Around The USA
Nobody Knows Your Coach Like Somebody Who Owns One Just Like Yours
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06-06-2008, 02:27 PM
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#12
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Administrator in Memoriam
Appalachian Campers
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Buladean, NC
Posts: 8,126
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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">He reported virtually the same story and predicted it would occur later in 2008.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Personally, I don't see it happening that soon, if we're lucky maybe 2009 or 2010. Since the oil price run up is global, there needs to be some sort of world wide event to trigger a slide. Not sure what that would be though.
Maybe a world wide recession, ending the war in the Mid-East, or termination of government subsidies in some of the communist countries would turn the tables of the price run up. Something needs to happen to break the overly exuberant speculation by those investing in this stuff.
Maybe a major breakthrough on alternative energy sources would stop it. Whatever it is it needs to come soon or this country will go into another depression of the type we saw in the thirties.
__________________
'11 GMC Acadia SLT AWD
'11 GMC Sierra 1500 4x4 Extended Cab
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06-06-2008, 04:07 PM
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#13
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Senior Member
Excel Owners Club
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Greenwood,IN
Posts: 206
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The problem can totally be traced to Washington DC. We (the US) have a 200 yr supply of oil not counting the oil shale that has been found. Bill Clinton vetoed the bill that would have allowed drilling the new fields in Alaska and now we are paying for it. None of these "green" politicians want off shore drilling while the red Chinese are drilling off the coast of Florida now. Nobody (Ted Kennedy for one) wants a wind farm because it would destroy the scenery. We could be energy independant from some of our enemies, but there is always someone to stop it. We need to find out who is getting rich off of this situation. I think we'd find it isn't necessarily the oil companies. I venture to say that it is some of these idiots that were voted into office. I'm all for alternative energies, but our economy is being destroyed needlessly. GM just closed four truck factories, at least 3 RV manufacturers have gone out of business and the "trickle down" has just begun.
__________________
Ed and Diane Van Cleave
2008 Excel E33TKE,'08 K3500 DRW, B&W Hitch
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06-06-2008, 05:22 PM
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#14
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Senior Member
Texas Boomers Club
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Somewhere in the lower 48
Posts: 2,312
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last week I paid 4.499 for diesel. this week it is 4.399.
__________________
John, Joyce and Zoie (our 17# Guard Dog)
2018 Ford F-450 KR (awesome truck) / 2019 Mobile Suites 40KSSB4 (lemon on wheels)
Fulltiming since 2008 and loving it
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